New FTC Platform

[Joe G.]

FIRST did this a couple years ago with FLL, switching from RCX to NXT (which was promted by the LEGO Corp decision to change controllers). At that time a transition period was implemented, allowing either controller to be used. Teams and schools that had a significant investment in LEGO parts based on the RCX were allowed to continue using it. In fact, a point bonus was given to RCX users the last two years in recognition of the NXT's superior capabilities.

Actually, in more cases than not, the RCX-NXT transition backfired. Most "elite" FLL teams ran to the NXT all excited during the first year of it, and found it horribly inferior to the RCX. Teams were making drastic changes to their robots just to change it back to RCX parts, and there were a great number more RCXs in 2007 than 2006. I know that the teams that I have been involved with, and many others, have not invested in NXT parts at all since the initial release, and plan to continue using RCXs for as long as they are allowed to. The free points is just an added bonus.

[TheOtherGuy]

From the announcement:

The structure of the new platform is metal. Specifically 12 gauge aluminum. The photo above shows a piece of the kit with two 25lb. weights, one tied to each end. The video below is one of our engineers hanging from an overhead bar using a piece of the new kit. Stronger metal allows teams to build robots that can withstand a lot of abuse - consistent with real world applications. You can keep using the metal you have from the previous kit as well.

(emphasis mine)
It seems that you can at least still use the metal from previous years, which may end up being of some use to a lot of teams. Please don't make assumptions that teams will be spending tons of money on parts just yet. We still know very little of this new system, or the rules of the robots for that matter.

[Lowfategg]

New info just posted on the blog about answering some questions people here on Delphi and vex forum had.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by Ken Delaney 357

"The new kit is a true robotics prototyping platform. It includes a variety of components from sensors, to motors, to metal, that represent current technology. This is not a toy."

Not a toy? Is this a bash on Vex?

Ding Ding Ding! I think we have a winner here. From this statement, it seems to me that FIRST's thoughts on VEX are that it is essentially a jazzed up toy. Tell that to the many, many students learning from VEX or the school systems that have invested ten thousand(+) in VEX for their school systems.

All this is going to do is split people. You have the hundreds of current FTC teams using VEX that have invested a lot into this platform. They're not going to change when events are still prevalent and honestly just cheaper to run because they're not going through the "FIRST Machine."

Why the switch? Probably because FIRST just wasn't happy with the results they got from VEX. I don't know why though, plenty of students were being inspired using that system. Perhaps it wasn't attracting the fan base they thought it would. Either way, I don't think I can support any kind of platform that has been designed and developed to replace a perfectly valid solution that obviously works.

[Andrew Bates]

The switch has also likely been influenced by the apparent break-up between FIRST and IFI.

[davidfv]

I pretty much put up all the money myself for the VEX team that I was sponsoring. It was a small team from our FRC team. I hope that I can find sponsors that do not take too much away from the FRC team. The kits need to be out in the summer so we can actually see the costs and know what type of fund raising we would need to do.

I am going to look for more VEX only competitions to keep the kids interested.

I am saddened by this change, but people will adapt. I wonder if FIRST will lower the cost of entry fees to help offset the cost of the new platform for teams?

[chaoticprout]

Without siding on either side in this post (even though I personally love Vex and what it does), does it not seem apparent that chances are the new control system for this platform will be one and the same with the new FRC control system? (Edit: Or highly similiar)

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by chaoticprout

does it not seem apparent that chances are the new control system for this platform will be one and the same with the new FRC control system? (Edit: Or highly similiar)

I expect so. I also don't think it makes much difference except for the FRC teams that look upon FTC as an entry-level program to train freshmen. To the FTC-only teams commonality with FRC only helps if it makes parts cheaper.

EDITD: Chaotic makes a good point. Didn't mean to sound like I was minimizing the comment -- I think he's right on.

[Bongle]

Looking positive:

Good Things (confirmed)
-Stronger Metal[0]
-Stronger gears[0]
-Re-use of VEX metal is allowed[1]
-Same-scale field, so the robots aren't getting substantially larger (and the venues required aren't, either)[3]

Hopeful Things (possible based on evidence so far)
-Same battery voltage (7.2v) points to possible VEX motor re-use[2]*
-VEX sensors appear to simply output electrical signals (analog or digital) not tied to any particular controller, so if the new controller has PWMs as inputs, then re-use of those may be possible as well*
-VEX always had "just the controller" package[4], perhaps this one will too. If that is true, AND motor/sensor re-use is allowed, then existing teams may be able to just buy the controller.

*Both of these, however, would require FTC to allow motor and sensor re-use in their rules.

Sources:
0: http://firsttechchallenge.blogspot.c...-platform.html
1: "You can keep using the metal you have from the previous kit as well." from [0]
2: "Batteries used with Vex will work" from http://firsttechchallenge.blogspot.c...-concerns.html
3: "FTC will continue to use the 12' x 12' playing field" from http://firsttechchallenge.blogspot.c...-concerns.html
4: http://www.vexlabs.com/vex-robotics-...ming-kit.shtml

[yongkimleng]

How disappointing to not hear about improvements for the sensors and motors... yet.
- Better Encoders
- Potentiometer
- IR Rangefinder
- limit switch with wheel/ball
- Larger variety of motors (e.g. high torque, linear, high speed, 360deg servos, etc
- digital compass

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by yongkimleng

How disappointing to not hear about improvements for the sensors and motors... yet.
- Better Encoders
- Potentiometer

There is a Vex pot now, and the newer encoders are quadrature. Were you thinking of something else?

EDITED: There are parts still missing, but these two showed up some time this season.

[Gdeaver]

Now if they would only repackage some IR range finders.

[yongkimleng]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

Now if they would only repackage some IR range finders.

or even better, just change the rules to allow a certain model of IR rangefinder. Used some sharp GP2D12s on a home made bot.. the pins and voltages are similar.

[Bongle]

Bump: There's a new post up describing the new modem/control system. Short version: bluetooth allows for more simultaneous matches, and the use of a wider variety of controllers (video game controllers).

[Gdeaver]

Bluetooth? Hmm. That 2.4 band is getting crowded. This needs to be tested so everyone that's going to Atlanta, make sure you have your cyborg bluetooth headset on and go over to the FTC area while they're using the new system and make a bunch of calls. Then to realy test it lets have some people set up some pre n networks and see if the bluetooth can take it.