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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-03-2008, 00:27
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

I'm mostly concerned about the call(s) that ended the Silicon Valley Regional. The refs didn't score a blue bonus ball because it was supported by a red robot. The rules clearly state that balls score if partially supported by the overpass and not touching a same colored robot. It's just about the most basic rule possible, and the concept is the same year in and year out. Any scoring item don't score for a team at the end of the match if touched by that same colored team. I think the main concern isn't the consistency of interpretation at this point so much as calling the rules appropriately.
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Unread 16-03-2008, 00:34
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

I thought we were the only team that felt this way about this whole weekend.
I too dont believe in the "volunteer excuse." No one is pointing out that they are ungrateful of volunteers. When you volunteer for something, there is a certain amount of responsibilities that you must uphold in meeting a task or criteria. In this case, its understanding the rules. We have the right to "graciously" question things that we know/feel may be incorrect.

Example #1: Both us and our teammate were crossing the second lane divider during hybrid. The other team moved 3 feet in front of their starting position, then stopped (I wont assume that they were trying to block). How is it that we get 1 penalty each for hitting the robot during hybrid mode? It wasnt even hard and no damages took place. Due to the contact, both us and our teammate actually had our ball grabbing manipulators malfunction, deeming us unable to hurdle.

Example #2: I saw a robot trying to hurdle and accidentally place the ball on the overpass instead. Their teammate comes around and knocks the ball down. No points were awarded. I asked the referee on the "left" how come it wasn't a hurdle since I was standing in the queue area waiting for our match. "He" told me that they didnt pick up the ball to hurdle it. ???? Last time I checked, that was a hurdle.

Example #3: We were assessed a penalty after a match because one of our alliance partner's coach was standing next to us instead, but "within the area for drivers and coaches" during hybrid period. He said we all had to stand behind our respective teams. Since when?? If so, how come it was never called all of the other times I saw it.

Example #4: I saw an alliance receive 40 points in penalties. 30 of them was because the entire alliance went to the controls a few seconds before the bell rang after hybrid mode. I dont get it. The whole day had teams consistently moving to their operator controls just ever so slightly before tele-op period.

Heres the problem: These referees (who are trying their best) who have just the slightest inconsistencies in how they call penalties has a HUGE impact in the W-L column of the respective matches. I have never seen a game where penalties consistently affect whether teams win or lose.
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Last edited by waialua359 : 16-03-2008 at 00:37.
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Unread 16-03-2008, 00:39
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

Quote:
Originally Posted by waialua359 View Post
Heres the problem: These referees (who are trying their best) who have just the slightest inconsistencies in how they call penalties has a HUGE impact in the W-L column of the respective matches. I have never seen a game where penalties consistently affect whether teams win or lose.
Glenn,

I agree. Saying that the refs are trying their best is a total cop-out. If someone flat out don't have a solid grasp of the rules, then their best just doesn't cut it, and something has to be done.
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Unread 16-03-2008, 01:26
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I agree. Saying that the refs are trying their best is a total cop-out. If someone flat out don't have a solid grasp of the rules, then their best just doesn't cut it, and something has to be done.
I know that all the referees had to take an online training course for two days. Isn't it at all possible that there could be tests and refreshers for the refs leading up to the competitions? I know that a lot of teams do rules tests for the students (and mentors in some cases) to make sure they know the rules inside and out. Who's to say that's out of the question for making sure the officials are prepared?
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Unread 16-03-2008, 09:44
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

Well, myself and Dustin(thefro) were talking and we were just throwing around the idea of a massive online drivers meeting. It might be kind of hard to get together but it would be beneficial. The driver and the Refs could all have a meeting and the drivers could ask questions about the penalties that are going to be called. It would be just like the regional meeting but all the Refs would be in the same place so it would probably make it easier for them to make more consistent calls. Also, teams would know better what to do and not to do.
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Unread 16-03-2008, 09:55
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

Personally, I believe it should be the head refs job to ensure that the game is called consistently. This is by working with the other refs to make sure everyone is on the same page on thursday's practice day as well as friday and saturday. In any sport, the refs are under a huge amount of pressure and will make mistakes. However, if the head refs are on the same page, many of these mistakes should be prevented.
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Unread 16-03-2008, 10:14
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

Also now that I have put out my thoughts, how do you guys think it would to actually make that happen.
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Unread 16-03-2008, 12:11
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

How about getting mentors who are not participating in the regionals call the game? We know the rules backwards and forward, so do the kids. I was extremely disappointed at SVR when our team captain came back after standing the "ref's box" during the finals and told me some lady from the back in a FIRST shirt came up to him and told him to "stop complaining and get on with it" before he had even had a ref come up to him to see what he had to say. Looking at the rules this year I think we all knew it was going to be a bad year for calls. There was too much subjectivity and obscurity in them.
What happened to us in the finals during the third match however was not subjective when a track ball supported by an opponent was not counted. Blatant mistakes and lack of knowledge for general rules has no excuse.
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Unread 16-03-2008, 12:38
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

If a team recognizes that a rule is not being applied correctly, like <G14> (Trackball partially supported by the overpass at the end-of-match) at SVR, it is their duty to make the refs aware of the correct ruling. I've read in the SVR Regional thread that this rule was consistently mis-applied throughout SVR but, somehow, the refs weren't made aware of the issue until after the Finals-3 match.

Who's fault is that? Why didn't a team affected by this error in an earlier match "camp" in the challenge box until it was resolved? There is a ruling appeals process that starts with the head ref, then FTA, then FIRST authorities. There's a field-side rulebook with FIRST Q&A Forum responses appended for reference. If the team is told "even if we reverse the call, it won't affect the result", that's no reason to accept an incorrect ruling. As we've seen, the problem can and most likely will resurface. The business of making "consistent calls" is OK for judgment calls (like what defines "incidental contact" between robots), but not outright changing of the rules.

I wouldn't bash refs if teams are just "rolling over" and accepting incorrect applications of the rules. If you are told to "cease" your protest to keep the game flow moving, please make sure that the FTA or other authority is at least aware that an issue has been identified...before you walk away. The challenge box is there for a reason, you have a right to appeal, don't give it away.

There's an adage I often hear in my business: "silence is concurrence".

If something is wrong and you don't speak up, don't expect the problem to magically disappear.
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Unread 16-03-2008, 13:55
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

The problem is that many teams were challenging the <G14> ruling at SVR and they were consistently sending the student players away by saying that that was the referees call by their interpretation of the rules. You asking quite a lot out of a student player to have them sit there and protest a call until the referees change their mind about a ruling when everyone around them is trying to keep the elimination matches going and usher them off the field. My only thought about this is that some one should should have got a clue that something was wrong with this "ruling" after many teams were challenging the same thing. It seems odd that it would have taken until the the third match of the finals to figure this out.

Our alliance captain for QF1-2 challenged the same call affecting a 12 point bonus. I would have been a lot to ask of her to protest the call until it was right after she was told the reason for the call, which she graciously disagreed with, the scores had been announced and the victor of the quaterfinal matches had already been proclaimed. I am not saying that the outcome of the quarterfinal match-up would have changed but, it would have been nice to get it right. I also believe that a team in the SF1 matches also protested the same call.
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Unread 16-03-2008, 14:01
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

These events are for our students -- it should never be their responsibility to make sure they're run correctly.
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Unread 16-03-2008, 14:07
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

There are inconsistencies in professional sports too. Ref crews in the NFL/NBA/NHL/MLB all call things a little differently. From strike zones in baseball to holding penalties in football every game will have it's own personality.

It's just the nature of the beast when you have humans making the calls.

It will always be part of sports and FIRST. A teams job is to learn how the game is being called on that day and a good coach/strategy team will adjust accordingly.
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Unread 16-03-2008, 14:13
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Cool Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

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Originally Posted by waialua359 View Post

Heres the problem: These referees (who are trying their best) who have just the slightest inconsistencies in how they call penalties has a HUGE impact in the W-L column of the respective matches. I have never seen a game where penalties consistently affect whether teams win or lose.
this recalls the 2005 game where "being in the box" for picking up tetras on the loader was called in ridiculous fashion and different throughout the country

the only way we will ever get past this sort of ridiculous nonsense is to have a game where the rules are not subject to the interpretation of the referees- aka: less of them and no contest. Since we have refs involved in making the game each year you can be assured that they will ALWAYS be center stage in whatever FIRST comes up with.

if the rules are so complex they require a special interpretation forum and committee to determine them there is something wrong with the game. When you watch a regional and 90% of the rounds have penalties assessed then that game has rules issues. What is essential and what is picayune?

how about a game where either the task is done or it isn't? The refs are nice folks but this is a game played with machines and not people.

as I've stated previously- this game " inhales audibly" - for just the above reason. JMO

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Unread 16-03-2008, 14:13
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

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Originally Posted by M. Krass View Post
These events are for our students -- it should never be their responsibility to make sure they're run correctly.
Unfortunately, <G53> (referee interactions) puts this responsibility solely on students.

I don't understand why COACHES cannot participate in rules discussion. It seems that FIRST assumes the referees always have it right and allowing another adult in a rules discussion can only lead to bad things. Maybe this rule needs to be revisited (i.e. allow coaches to consult with the FTA, should the student/referee interaction be fruitless).
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Unread 16-03-2008, 14:35
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Re: Call Inconsistencies Between Regionals

Okay, this is starting to get ridiculous. How many threads do we need to say the same thing? THE REFS ARE FLAWED, I THINK WE'VE MADE THAT POINT. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO FIX IT, SUCK IT UP AND MOVE ON.
Constantly whining about it won't get you anywhere. So far this thread has contained exactly two suggestions to actually try and improve the situation. Two pages, twenty-three different posters, two suggestions. And you wonder why this issue comes up every year...
If you want to resolve the issue you have to be progressive, work towards a solution, not continually bash the refs and whine about rulings. How many of you have been refs before? How many of you took the online training course? I'd be interested in hearing what that course contained and what we could do to further increase its effectiveness.
Perhaps we could increase the amount of time Refs spent on the field during Thursdays, and emphasize to the student's this is a time to work with the rules and the refs to explore how they will call the game.
Does anyone else have any suggestions, or are we going to go back to flaming the refs?
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