New FTC Platform

[yongkimleng]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

Bluetooth? Hmm. That 2.4 band is getting crowded. This needs to be tested so everyone that's going to Atlanta, make sure you have your cyborg bluetooth headset on and go over to the FTC area while they're using the new system and make a bunch of calls. Then to realy test it lets have some people set up some pre n networks and see if the bluetooth can take it.

Personally i'd favour 802.11g instead of bluetooth. Longer (reliable) range, higher power, a larger range of channels to use (14+ channels). And much faster data rate.. you could actually run an Ethernet cam on ur bot.

[Gdeaver]

Vexlabs is going with G so we do have a choice. Will be interesting to see which aproach works best in a competion.

[yongkimleng]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

Vexlabs is going with G so we do have a choice. Will be interesting to see which aproach works best in a competion.

cool I have a half hacked Fon router with serial output meant to couple serial devices to wifi.. but oh well thats gonna be redundant soon

[MarkJ]

I can't believe FIRST is even thinking of moving away form Vex. If Vex had been around a couple years earlier, I think my original school would still be in FIRST. I've been using and working with some Vex teams the last two years, and the students love it. It's pretty cheap, still challenging, doesn't need a machine shop, the school can do it with teachers and students without needing engineers, and they don't have to spend the year fundraising. If everyone seems to like it, and all the teams I talked to at the LA vex event december seem to really like it, why would FIRST switch. I don't get it. The school I work with already spent a lot of money on it, and the students get a lot out of it, so we won't be switching to something else - there's no reason to.
Plus, I'm much more excited about the wifi system Vex announced than the bluetooth system announced hear. I'd trust wifi over bluetooth any day. I don't get it, bad decision FIRST, just doesn't make sense.

[Rick TYler]

You know, MarkJ, you started me thinking -- I don't believe I've heard or read anything from an FTC team about wanting to replace Vex as the platform. I've heard requests for more-powerful motors and certain sensors, but never, "this platform is awful, we need to ditch it." I wonder where the idea to completely replace Vex came from? So far, the response on the forums has been about 10- to-1 against.

[Andrew Bates]

Remember there are some high level politics involved with this decision. For those who don't know FIRST is not using IFI's robot control system in the FRC after this year. IFI is also the owner of VEX.

[Ben Mitchell]

See my post in the general forum for my thoughts on this subject.

[ManicMechanic]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

I wonder where the idea to completely replace Vex came from?

I'm as much out of the loop as anyone but have been trying to process this in a way that makes some sense to me, wanting to believe in the best of both FIRST and Vex. I am basing my conjectures on observations of FVC/FTC events vs. independent Vex events (i.e. Bridge Battle).

Fact: "Divorces" often occur over disagreements about money.
Fact: FIRST (FTC/FVC) registration costs $275/team. In contrast, there is no registration cost for the Vex Bridge Battle Competition (other than individual tournament fees).
Fact: FIRST has offered steep discounts on Vex kits ($375 bundle kit in 2006, 2 X $219 starter kits in 2007). In contrast, Vex at this time is not offering any quantity discounts (I asked), unlike Radio Shack, which offered at least 10% off on quantity purchases.

Conjecture: I am guessing that Vex would like FIRST to discount (decrease) its registration fee, while FIRST would like to see Vex offer discounts on equipment sold to registered teams, and this might be one of the causes of the break-up. Of course, this could be completely off; I could be in the dark about some huge elephant which is being kept in the closet.

On one hand, I can see why Vex might not want to discount its equipment – it sells quality products at a reasonable price, and the FVC/FTC discounts, along with the 50% Radio Shack sale a few years ago have produced continual expectations of unrealistically low prices. On the other hand, I understand why FIRST charges such steep registration fees. In addition to maintaining the full-time staff and having a budget for program development, the Affiliate Partner infrastructure costs something (conference calls, training), even though AP's are volunteers. This ensures that the quality of official FIRST events is high and somewhat uniform. I have coached FLL and FVC teams for 5 years and feel that what we paid in FIRST registration fees has been more than worth the money.

I have participated in a low-budget robotics program, and know that you often get what you pay for. For example, at one event, the competition field was specified to be 40" long in the official manual but was only 30" long at the event we attended. There were field objects that were supposed to weigh 7 ounces; the actual weight was 64 ounces. My team had a good experience at this event because I had warned the team ahead of time not to compare this event to a FIRST event (and perhaps because they took home 2 trophies). However, had there been more teams and higher expectations, this could have been a disaster.

It had always been my hope that FIRST and IFI would "kiss and make up" at the 11th hour, but this hope was dashed with the announcement of the new system. FVC was a partnership of the best program with the best system (IMHO), and the breakup will hurt them both, and the students most of all. But I also believe that both FTC and Vex will survive, and so will the students. Now there will be more choices, and I suppose that will be a good thing. But I will miss everyone in Atlanta.

[yongkimleng]

Well I guess there are many reasons for the split..

Keeping an open mind, I personally won't mind a more powerful processor if the features justify the price. Anyone dreamed of using a full x86 processor for higher level logic, Java programmable, handling vision processing, and using common storage like USB drives and SD cards, with multiple user-programmable co-processors for low level PIDs? Intelligent motors with integrated encoders and monitoring functions? Maybe even a prototype Field Positioning System functioning like an in-door gps for competitions?

My take is that while FIRST pushes things to higher levels of complexity, offering wider choices of things to use, etc etc, the demand for low-cost robotics competitions is still there. Especially in times like now when the economy isn't exactly doing very well.

IFI could further leverage on the current situation by seriously ironing out existing quirks with the Vex system, and/or lowering cost of the steel and plastic stuff (ok I don't know if its right to say that, but these parts manufactured in China is pretty low cost right). Credit goes to them for choosing WiFi, hope they pull it off nicely (P.S. where to get Vex proto boards?)

As for FIRST, my only guess why they are inclined on bluetooth is the ease of integration. I've played with serial-BT devices before and they are like, a drop-in replacement for a point-to-point serial link. Coz the interface on those bluetooth endpoints are just TTL serial. The drawback, though, is the limit on transfer rate. We'll still be stuck with like what, 115kbps streams (lol). Unless its native bluetooth, then yeah the cap is increased and we've more possibilities.

Metal gears and such definitely allows more possibilities. Thats if they are putting it together such that, we can make FRC-sized bots out of a kit. Otherwise with small vex sized bots (thats subjective, but to be specific I meant 18"x18"x18" bots), I think plastic is cheaper and (when properly engineered) as reliable as metal parts.
(P.S. There are actually gears of higher density than current vex gears right? anyone come across?)

Whatever their decisions are, I guess its up to the school / students to have their take on who they would support (like, BluRay vs HD). Who knows, maybe years later, FIRST still has FRC being popular and Vex allows lower barriers to entry for those starting out to learn more about robotics?

[Daviddavid]

Originally Posted by yongkimleng

As for FIRST, my only guess why they are inclined on bluetooth is the ease of integration. I've played with serial-BT devices before and they are like, a drop-in replacement for a point-to-point serial link. Coz the interface on those bluetooth endpoints are just TTL serial. The drawback, though, is the limit on transfer rate. We'll still be stuck with like what, 115kbps streams (lol).

Metal gears and such definitely allows more possibilities. Thats if they are putting it together such that, we can make FRC-sized bots out of a kit.

I'm much more excited about the wifi possibilities. About metal gears and stuff, why? It's not needed. Why would we want to build FRC-sized bots in FTC, isn't that what FRC is for? The reason I got a school to agree to start a vex team next year is because it was small enough to do in the room, they didn't need a machine shop, it was pretty cheap and it was safe for kids to work with. Bigger and stronger robots just moves away from that, which is why I hope FIRST realizes Vex is perfect for classroom use and keeps it.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Daviddavid

I'm much more excited about the wifi possibilities. About metal gears and stuff, why? It's not needed. Why would we want to build FRC-sized bots in FTC, isn't that what FRC is for?

The Field is going to be the same size so you can assume that the robots will be roughly the same size as VEX.

Originally Posted by Daviddavid

The reason I got a school to agree to start a vex team next year is because it was small enough to do in the room, they didn't need a machine shop, it was pretty cheap and it was safe for kids to work with. Bigger and stronger robots just moves away from that, which is why I hope FIRST realizes Vex is perfect for classroom use and keeps it.

You aren't going to need a machine shop with the new kit either. I don't see anything in the limited information given to us that would not make this new kits just as easy to use in a classroom.

[yongkimleng]

And just to note, vex just released quad encoders (are they as faulty as old encoders?) and potentiometers. like FINALLY they have potentiometers...

[Bongle]

New post up on the blog.

Highlights:
-The 7.2V batteries will be wired in series to give 14.4V (the new motors run at 12V)
-A robot constructed with the new equipment will be robust enough to tow an office chair (see video).

Well, there goes my optimism that you'll be able to use VEX sensors and motors. Hopefully they'll still allow complete vex kits to compete a la RCX units in FLL.

[Ken Delaney 357]

This does not look good. They are using an NXT controller with an add on. I looked at NXT sensor prices they are pretty steep. I can build my own sensors if I want. Do you know any electrical engineers who want to mentor my team? I know we are supposed to get engineers to help support the team but their schedules and mine don't coexist. I run the team after school because I have family commitments. We will meet sometimes during weekends but that presents other issues. I really enjoyed FTC/FVC because it gave me a taste of FRC without it taking over my life. I really do not like where this is heading.

[Daviddavid]

Someone on the FTC blog site brought up a really great point I hadn't thought of about the new FTC kit having bigger motors and metal gears - it's now a much more dangerous kit than the Vex platform is.

The new kit sounds more like FRC. But for classroom use, the Vex kit is clearly the safer and more proven option. I thought FVC was meant to be a bridge between FLL and FRC, now it seems the new platform is really a possible cheaper alternative to FRC, not a low cost bridge to it. I can't recommend the new platform over Vex to middle schools or high schools I want to work with. Vex is cheaper, is safer, is high quality, is proven and really seems ideal for the classroom. Plus I like Vex a lot, so there's no reason to change unless something better and cheaper comes out - which the new platform is not.