At Competition

[Racer26]

You make it sound as though females don't swear. I'm not saying that swearing in the pits is right, or what have you, but FIRST events are high energy, fired up events. Tension is VERY high on many teams, especially when things don't go according to plan.

Outlawing curse words from FIRST events is not going to work, people will still swear, and FIRST is about preparing people for the real world. People swear in the real world. Why should we play the protectionist role?

I don't like your implication that girls don't swear, and that its those filthy boys doing all the cussing. I know plenty of girls who swear.

[IndySam]

There is no place at competition for swearing. I don't care how pressure packed it is.

If I hear another team using inappropriate language I will speak to their mentor. If the universal adjective is being used I will not hesitate to speak directly to the perpetrator.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

I don't like your implication that girls don't swear, and that its those filthy boys doing all the cussing. I know plenty of girls who swear.

Hahahahaha! So true. Swearing is a human characteristic not limited to race, sex, or age.

What we have here is a balance between the GP world of FIRST, and the pit environment which is semi-rooted in a mechanical field of things not going perfect.
(The auto shop theory if you will).

Can you make a difference at the personal level and ask someone not to swear if you go up to them personally and ask them not to?
Probably.

Should FIRST be involved and ban swearing in the pits?
Maybe. But highly unlikely.

Overall swearing is not illegal and shouldn't be considered that at FIRST events. It's something that will happen.
Should it happen? No. But we don't live in a perfect swear-free world.

If you are offended at swearing the move should be yours to remedy that in people around you and to not rely on FIRST to stop it.

If you really want to, make an announcement over the PA system in the pits with a friendly reminder that children and families and (non-swearing) girls are present at the event they are in and to keep it under wraps.

if you wanted to go the extra step, hang some signs up that say "Entering a swear-free environment. - Please abide by the request to "keep it clean" in everything you do today" or something like that and throw your team number on that if your team is as adament* with this movement as you are.
Maybe it'll even win you an award or something doing that.. who knows?

That's all you can do at this point in my opinion.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

Can you make a difference at the personal level and ask someone not to swear if you go up to them personally and ask them not to?
Probably.

I don't have a problem with people doing this. This is the appropriate way to approach this problem, if it really offends you. I hate censorship with an undying passion, and think censorship in ANY media (print, audio, video, oral face-to-face communication, etc) is stupid. Self-censorship is better, but not by much. Its simple, if something offends you, don't listen to it. Censorship in music is the one that really bugs me. By censoring the song, you remove the artists original intent from the song, instead of just not listening to it, if it offends you.

Will asking someone to stop swearing near you because it offends you help? Maybe. It can't hurt. Will they be offended that you're trying to tell them what to do? Maybe.

All I know is there are plenty of places in life where I see people swearing all the time. (Though admittedly, I do tend to attend places where this might be more common: racetracks, other competitive environments, etc)

You can't protect people from it, and you can't outlaw it, so I suggest learning to not let it offend you. Things like the ever-versatile F-word. Its a word, nothing more. Its offensive connotation is all in how one interprets it. Ones that really get me are words like A** and sh*t. These are words that have a real definition. An $@#$@#$@# is a donkey. This context is used in the BIBLE, and yet, some people are offended by this word. Same goes for sh*t. I don't understand how it is any more offensive than poo, or feces.

In any case, the point I'm laboriously trying to get to is that it is highly unlikely you will eliminate swearing anywhere. You may however, be able to reduce it through making people aware that they're offending you.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

I don't have a problem with people doing this. This is the appropriate way to approach this problem, if it really offends you. I hate censorship with an undying passion, and think censorship in ANY media (print, audio, video, oral face-to-face communication, etc) is stupid. Self-censorship is better, but not by much. Its simple, if something offends you, don't listen to it. Censorship in music is the one that really bugs me. By censoring the song, you remove the artists original intent from the song, instead of just not listening to it, if it offends you.

Will asking someone to stop swearing near you because it offends you help? Maybe. It can't hurt. Will they be offended that you're trying to tell them what to do? Maybe.

All I know is there are plenty of places in life where I see people swearing all the time. (Though admittedly, I do tend to attend places where this might be more common: racetracks, other competitive environments, etc)

You can't protect people from it, and you can't outlaw it, so I suggest learning to not let it offend you. Things like the ever-versatile F-word. Its a word, nothing more. Its offensive connotation is all in how one interprets it. Ones that really get me are words like A** and sh*t. These are words that have a real definition. An $@#$@#$@# is a donkey. This context is used in the BIBLE, and yet, some people are offended by this word. Same goes for sh*t. I don't understand how it is any more offensive than poo, or feces.

In any case, the point I'm laboriously trying to get to is that it is highly unlikely you will eliminate swearing anywhere. You may however, be able to reduce it through making people aware that they're offending you.

We are not at a racetrack or any other place where foul language is permitted. We are in what is supposed to be a profesional environment. (btw I have nicely asked people at a NASCAR race to please watch their language and they apologized).

We are teaching students to be professionals, if they use that language at any engineering/technical company I have been associated with they would be warned and then fired, period.

[Racer26]

If FIRST is a "professional" environment, then we should be having the refs make professional calls, but thats a whole other can of worms. Making calls that are explicitly wrong per the rules, and not an interpretation issue is unprofessional. Period. (See: SVR Finals)

EDIT: Also, how can you say foul language is not permitted at FIRST events. Nobody ever said that, and its not in any rulebooks that I can recall, correct me if I'm wrong...

EDIT2: And I'm fairly certain nobody explicitly PERMITS profanity anywhere.

[Tom Line]

Heck, I'll admit to swearing during the Detroit Competition. I'm not particularly proud of it, but my work environment (shop floor and machine shop) is one where it's a normal part of everyday speech.

Had someone pointed it out to me, I would have hastily apologized to them!

That's the right track to take. Let's face it - kids are going to hear this stuff well before high school and FIRST. Having them see someone politely address it is the best way to handle it. Trying to somehow ban or penalize people for it? That would be yet another rule that FIRST couldn't enforce.

I'd much rather have them cancel the contract of the DJ's who play the profanity-ridden rap at several of the events. Hearing it in the pits is one thing - broadcasting it to the world is quite another!

[Racer26]

Tom, theres a whole other discussion on the questionable music played at some events... Songs like "Save a horse, ride a cowboy". While not ACTUALLY having any profanity... the lyrics pose a questionable situation, and implicate things which are inappropriate. I'm sure a quick search would bring up that thread.

[Kims Robot]

Im all for the constructive ideas presented here (ok we get that there are different levels of chivalry, old-fashionedness, real-worldedness, etc among all of us). I think K-dawg did the right thing in asking the teams around their team as well as perhaps a friendly reminder on the announcements. Ideas like presenting to your team to set an example, or like Elgin's hanging signs in the pits, or even the quarter jar are easy ways to try to extend the FIRST culture and professionalism.

So to the topic, yes we are all human, and many of us, I included, have generally let something slip. However, we can encourage it not to be an every other sentence practice, as we know that it might offend others around us. It is about respect. Saturday there were so many little kids coming through our pits to ask for buttons or to see our robot, that our students were constantly tapping eachother on the shoulder to be on our best behavior.

What I am amazed that I havent seen yet in this thread is the whole concept of GP: "to act as if your Grandmother were watching" or "to make your Grandmother proud". Now I know that many grandmothers may be "cooler" these days, and not stick a bar of soap in your mouth for saying a swear word, but many of us still wont purposfully swear infront of our parents or grandparents. Heck, I still feel weird swearing in front of my dad, and Im 27! He never swears in front of me... in fact I dont think I've ever heard him swear.

Does that mean I never do? No. Have I slipped in front of my students? Yes. Do I ever swear at work? Nearly never. Its not professional, and while some places may "swear like dockworkers" I guarantee if you go to any big engineering companies, its not commonplace. Its not professional and it doesnt gain you respect. I've not once heard any of our contractors swear in front of us. They want to retain our business, so they treat us with respect. Do I think swearing should be banned? or teams witchhunted? No, definitely not. Do I think teams should try and act more professionally at competition? Of course. FIRST is lightyears away from any major sporting event. You would NEVER see the Patriots give the Giants a timeout in the superbowl. So we should continue to act like it.

So going back to constructive ideas, i want to Steal Elgin's and modify it. Don't just make signs, make buttons! Do something like "I make my Grandmother Proud" or "My Grandmother IS watching (don't swear!)" or something like that, hand them out at events, or even give awards to teams for improving once you mention something to them. Perhaps stay away from things that are outside the FIRST culture (no-swearing zone may make your team seem goody-goody, but sticking with the Proud Grandmother theme is part of FIRST culture). Come up with a list of "20 reasons not to swear" or "20 things to say instead of swears", make it funny and catchy and hand those out at events. People will laugh but see your point.

But in the end, realize that some people wont change, that some students arent brought up to respect the wishes of others or to consider swearing wrong, or perhaps its commonplace on their teams to swear. Everyone is different, and in the end, we all have to accept eachother for who we are. I would like to think that if asked in the right way all teams would respect others, but often its either dismissed or ignored, if its not presented in a convincing manor. So figure out the motive for these teams that bother you, look at it through their eyes, they obviously dont see anything wrong with it (which each of us is entitled to), but figure out how you can convince them. Whether its through something funny, some cute buttons, or by talking to the right person on their team...

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

What I am amazed that I havent seen yet in this thread is the whole concept of GP: "to act as if your Grandmother were watching" or "to make your Grandmother proud". Now I know that many grandmothers may be "cooler" these days, and not stick a bar of soap in your mouth for saying a swear word, but many of us still wont purposfully swear infront of our parents or grandparents.

In general, this is a very good idea. But we have to acknowledge that there are always the exceptions that prove the rule. For example, asking me not to swear in front of my grandmother was always sort of pointless - she was the one that taught me to swear.

(none the less, Kim's point is well taken)

-dave

[Racer26]

Oh dave, what would the community do without you to play devils advocate for EVERY statement anyone makes?

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by dlavery

For example, asking me not to swear in front of my grandmother was always sort of pointless - she was the one that taught me to swear.

And my grandmother washed my mouth out with soap. It didn't work. I still swear. I try not to swear in innappropriate places, like at FIRST events. I don't appreciate being sworn at, at FIRST events. Or given an attitude. I guess it's a matter of respect.

[moojoe]

first off, girls do swear.
secondly, FIRST is very largely about replicating the real world. we do things now that we may be doing after college.
now please, show me an engineering firm that has a no swearing policy that is actually enforced. before I decided to become a teacher, I was an assistant technical director at a number of theatres. while back stage theatre is a bit dispaportionant with swearing to the rest of the world, when I would visit companies who make theatre equipment, who have a number of engineers working to create a better light, or a move efficiant tool, the amount of swearing I would hear from them would make me think they were a group of dockworkers(as the saying goes)
now I'm not saying lets just swear whenever we want. when I'm at the school, unless things are going really really bad(dewalt transmissions anyone?), I'll try not to swear infront of the students. and if the students swear for no reason, I will call them on it. and if they swear to another student, boy, they better hope I'm not in earshot. but at competition, unless a little kid is standing in our pit, I dont care if we swear when the bot is doing poorly, I dont care if we swear if it has reason. some times all someone needs in rough times is the satisfaction of yelling out a curse word. now if I were next to you, and swore, and you asked me to stop, yea, I would, but to make a rule about it, when its so increadibly different from the real world, would just be in my opinion stupid. I feel that if you have a problem with someone cursing, tell them, but unless theres a kid around us or something, dont expect everyone to change something that happens in the real world.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by moojoe

...FIRST is very largely about replicating the real world....I feel that if you have a problem with someone cursing, tell them, but unless theres a kid around us or something, dont expect everyone to change something that happens in the real world.

Bzzzt! Wrong answer. FIRST is very largely about changing the world. We do expect people to act in a "better" way, and thus to improve the real world.

[GaryVoshol]

For those who find nothing wrong with swearing at FIRST events, try slipping a few expletives into your Chairman's presentation and see the reaction you get. Then have the students use the same words in the classrooms they return to on Monday morning.

It's not simply a case of inappropriate words in places where women (*) and children might hear them. It's a case of using inappropriate words in inappropriate places. A quick slip in the heat of the moment is one thing, but if you can't string three sentences together without using a dozen swear words, you need to re-evaluate your speech patterns.

(*) - by the way, in a case that went all the way to the Michigan Supreme Court a few years ago, a law was invalidated regarding swearing in front of women. A guy was tipped out of his canoe and let out a string that could be heard half a mile away. He was brought up on charges, but eventually the conviction was overturned and the case dismissed because the law specified it applied in the presence of women.