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Unread 17-03-2008, 09:54
K-Dawg K-Dawg is offline
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Thumbs down At Competition

This is only my second year being involved with First and overall my experience as a mentor has been great. But I would like to point out what I think could be the ugliest part of my experience. We competed in 2007 at Pittsburgh, Palmetto and the Championship. So far this season at Pittsburgh and will compete at Palmetto and the Championship. We have been very fortunate to have mostly females on our team and this is where the ugliness comes in, the language that I hear in the pits is unbelievable, I have went to team mentors and ask team to watch their teams language, I have went to the pit announcers and had them make announcements about watching language, but this weekend in Pittsburgh I noticed it is not just the young members but many of the mentors that are using bad language in the pits where not only female members are located and working but families with young children are walking and looking.

I strongly think that FIRST needs to address this issue and I wanted others opinions.

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Unread 17-03-2008, 10:08
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Re: At Competition

You make it sound as though females don't swear. I'm not saying that swearing in the pits is right, or what have you, but FIRST events are high energy, fired up events. Tension is VERY high on many teams, especially when things don't go according to plan.

Outlawing curse words from FIRST events is not going to work, people will still swear, and FIRST is about preparing people for the real world. People swear in the real world. Why should we play the protectionist role?

I don't like your implication that girls don't swear, and that its those filthy boys doing all the cussing. I know plenty of girls who swear.
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Unread 17-03-2008, 10:20
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Re: At Competition

There is no place at competition for swearing. I don't care how pressure packed it is.

If I hear another team using inappropriate language I will speak to their mentor. If the universal adjective is being used I will not hesitate to speak directly to the perpetrator.
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Unread 17-03-2008, 10:30
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Re: At Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1075guy View Post
I don't like your implication that girls don't swear, and that its those filthy boys doing all the cussing. I know plenty of girls who swear.
Hahahahaha! So true. Swearing is a human characteristic not limited to race, sex, or age.

What we have here is a balance between the GP world of FIRST, and the pit environment which is semi-rooted in a mechanical field of things not going perfect.
(The auto shop theory if you will).

Can you make a difference at the personal level and ask someone not to swear if you go up to them personally and ask them not to?
Probably.

Should FIRST be involved and ban swearing in the pits?
Maybe. But highly unlikely.

Overall swearing is not illegal and shouldn't be considered that at FIRST events. It's something that will happen.
Should it happen? No. But we don't live in a perfect swear-free world.

If you are offended at swearing the move should be yours to remedy that in people around you and to not rely on FIRST to stop it.

If you really want to, make an announcement over the PA system in the pits with a friendly reminder that children and families and (non-swearing) girls are present at the event they are in and to keep it under wraps.

if you wanted to go the extra step, hang some signs up that say "Entering a swear-free environment. - Please abide by the request to "keep it clean" in everything you do today" or something like that and throw your team number on that if your team is as adament* with this movement as you are.
Maybe it'll even win you an award or something doing that.. who knows?

That's all you can do at this point in my opinion.
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Last edited by Elgin Clock : 17-03-2008 at 10:35.
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Unread 17-03-2008, 10:47
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Re: At Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Dawg View Post
but this weekend in Pittsburgh I noticed it is not just the young members but many of the mentors that are using bad language in the pits where not only female members are located and working but families with young children are walking and looking.

I strongly think that FIRST needs to address this issue and I wanted others opinions.

Thanks
K-Dawg
Team 2237
While I understand your concerns and problems, I do have to wonder how much of a sexist comment that is. Women can't handle swear words and should be treated specially? Isn't that just somewhat wrong?
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Unread 17-03-2008, 10:49
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Re: At Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgin Clock View Post
Can you make a difference at the personal level and ask someone not to swear if you go up to them personally and ask them not to?
Probably.
I don't have a problem with people doing this. This is the appropriate way to approach this problem, if it really offends you. I hate censorship with an undying passion, and think censorship in ANY media (print, audio, video, oral face-to-face communication, etc) is stupid. Self-censorship is better, but not by much. Its simple, if something offends you, don't listen to it. Censorship in music is the one that really bugs me. By censoring the song, you remove the artists original intent from the song, instead of just not listening to it, if it offends you.

Will asking someone to stop swearing near you because it offends you help? Maybe. It can't hurt. Will they be offended that you're trying to tell them what to do? Maybe.

All I know is there are plenty of places in life where I see people swearing all the time. (Though admittedly, I do tend to attend places where this might be more common: racetracks, other competitive environments, etc)

You can't protect people from it, and you can't outlaw it, so I suggest learning to not let it offend you. Things like the ever-versatile F-word. Its a word, nothing more. Its offensive connotation is all in how one interprets it. Ones that really get me are words like A** and sh*t. These are words that have a real definition. An $@#$@#$@# is a donkey. This context is used in the BIBLE, and yet, some people are offended by this word. Same goes for sh*t. I don't understand how it is any more offensive than poo, or feces.

In any case, the point I'm laboriously trying to get to is that it is highly unlikely you will eliminate swearing anywhere. You may however, be able to reduce it through making people aware that they're offending you.
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Unread 17-03-2008, 10:50
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Re: At Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Matt View Post
While I understand your concerns and problems, I do have to wonder how much of a sexist comment that is. Women can't handle swear words and should be treated specially? Isn't that just somewhat wrong?
Some of us old guys were raised as gentlemen that do not curse around women, if that is sexist then so be it.

I agree it's not up to FIRST to police the language, it's up to the participants.
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Unread 17-03-2008, 10:55
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Re: At Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndySam View Post
Some of us old guys were raised as gentlemen that do not curse around women, if that is sexist then so be it.

I agree it's not up to FIRST to police the language, it's up to the participants.
That's fine, but I think the problem was more of protecting by censoring others than showing self restraint in a public environment where everyone isn't familiar with eachother.
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Unread 17-03-2008, 10:56
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Re: At Competition

Well, I could take this in a direction about women wanting equal treatment, and then complaining when they get it, but I wont.
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Unread 17-03-2008, 10:56
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Re: At Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1075guy View Post
I don't have a problem with people doing this. This is the appropriate way to approach this problem, if it really offends you. I hate censorship with an undying passion, and think censorship in ANY media (print, audio, video, oral face-to-face communication, etc) is stupid. Self-censorship is better, but not by much. Its simple, if something offends you, don't listen to it. Censorship in music is the one that really bugs me. By censoring the song, you remove the artists original intent from the song, instead of just not listening to it, if it offends you.

Will asking someone to stop swearing near you because it offends you help? Maybe. It can't hurt. Will they be offended that you're trying to tell them what to do? Maybe.

All I know is there are plenty of places in life where I see people swearing all the time. (Though admittedly, I do tend to attend places where this might be more common: racetracks, other competitive environments, etc)

You can't protect people from it, and you can't outlaw it, so I suggest learning to not let it offend you. Things like the ever-versatile F-word. Its a word, nothing more. Its offensive connotation is all in how one interprets it. Ones that really get me are words like A** and sh*t. These are words that have a real definition. An $@#$@#$@# is a donkey. This context is used in the BIBLE, and yet, some people are offended by this word. Same goes for sh*t. I don't understand how it is any more offensive than poo, or feces.

In any case, the point I'm laboriously trying to get to is that it is highly unlikely you will eliminate swearing anywhere. You may however, be able to reduce it through making people aware that they're offending you.
We are not at a racetrack or any other place where foul language is permitted. We are in what is supposed to be a profesional environment. (btw I have nicely asked people at a NASCAR race to please watch their language and they apologized).

We are teaching students to be professionals, if they use that language at any engineering/technical company I have been associated with they would be warned and then fired, period.
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Unread 17-03-2008, 10:59
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Re: At Competition

If FIRST is a "professional" environment, then we should be having the refs make professional calls, but thats a whole other can of worms. Making calls that are explicitly wrong per the rules, and not an interpretation issue is unprofessional. Period. (See: SVR Finals)

EDIT: Also, how can you say foul language is not permitted at FIRST events. Nobody ever said that, and its not in any rulebooks that I can recall, correct me if I'm wrong...

EDIT2: And I'm fairly certain nobody explicitly PERMITS profanity anywhere.

Last edited by Racer26 : 17-03-2008 at 11:02.
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Unread 17-03-2008, 11:03
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Re: At Competition

Guy and Sam,
I agree with you. Sensitivity for language in front of females is something I was brought up on. If we are truly changing the world, why not try to initiate some change in language. We already make participants use technical jargon when describing their robot or software. I think we can all agree that even the pits are a semi-family environment. No need for rules from First, let's lead by example.
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Unread 17-03-2008, 11:05
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Re: At Competition

I'm totally for leading by example, and not swearing at events. But I'm just playing devils advocate, and pointing out that in the heat of the moment, people often forget things like this.
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Unread 17-03-2008, 11:06
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Re: At Competition

Heck, I'll admit to swearing during the Detroit Competition. I'm not particularly proud of it, but my work environment (shop floor and machine shop) is one where it's a normal part of everyday speech.

Had someone pointed it out to me, I would have hastily apologized to them!

That's the right track to take. Let's face it - kids are going to hear this stuff well before high school and FIRST. Having them see someone politely address it is the best way to handle it. Trying to somehow ban or penalize people for it? That would be yet another rule that FIRST couldn't enforce.

I'd much rather have them cancel the contract of the DJ's who play the profanity-ridden rap at several of the events. Hearing it in the pits is one thing - broadcasting it to the world is quite another!
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Unread 17-03-2008, 11:08
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Re: At Competition

Tom, theres a whole other discussion on the questionable music played at some events... Songs like "Save a horse, ride a cowboy". While not ACTUALLY having any profanity... the lyrics pose a questionable situation, and implicate things which are inappropriate. I'm sure a quick search would bring up that thread.
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