At Competition

[moojoe]

first off, girls do swear.
secondly, FIRST is very largely about replicating the real world. we do things now that we may be doing after college.
now please, show me an engineering firm that has a no swearing policy that is actually enforced. before I decided to become a teacher, I was an assistant technical director at a number of theatres. while back stage theatre is a bit dispaportionant with swearing to the rest of the world, when I would visit companies who make theatre equipment, who have a number of engineers working to create a better light, or a move efficiant tool, the amount of swearing I would hear from them would make me think they were a group of dockworkers(as the saying goes)
now I'm not saying lets just swear whenever we want. when I'm at the school, unless things are going really really bad(dewalt transmissions anyone?), I'll try not to swear infront of the students. and if the students swear for no reason, I will call them on it. and if they swear to another student, boy, they better hope I'm not in earshot. but at competition, unless a little kid is standing in our pit, I dont care if we swear when the bot is doing poorly, I dont care if we swear if it has reason. some times all someone needs in rough times is the satisfaction of yelling out a curse word. now if I were next to you, and swore, and you asked me to stop, yea, I would, but to make a rule about it, when its so increadibly different from the real world, would just be in my opinion stupid. I feel that if you have a problem with someone cursing, tell them, but unless theres a kid around us or something, dont expect everyone to change something that happens in the real world.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by K-Dawg

We have been very fortunate to have mostly females on our team and this is where the ugliness comes in, the language that I hear in the pits is unbelievable

Originally Posted by IndySam

Some of us old guys were raised as gentlemen that do not curse around women, if that is sexist then so be it.

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Sensitivity for language in front of females is something I was brought up on.

Well, I was raised to treat women as equals. I know quite a few females who would be offended by the comments quoted here. (See? Just because something offends you doesn't mean it offends others, and conversely, just because something makes perfect sense to you it can still be considered offensive by others. There's no possible way we'll remove everything that is considered offensive to someone from a FIRST event.)

If you all want to avoid using foul language, that's a great idea, but do it out of respect for the men AND women around you. If you all think women would be offended by it, then why wouldn't you think men would be too? K-Dawg, Sam, and Al, can I take your comments to mean that you would find no problem with swearing in the pits if there were only men around?

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

K-Dawg, Sam, and Al, can I take your comments to mean that you would find no problem with swearing in the pits if there were only men around?

No, I was just giving the context in which I was raised. I don't think swearing should be used at all.

Look I live in the real world most of the time and I understand that swearing is a part of it. I will most of the time overlook the occasional swear word but I have been in the pits next to a team who constantly used foul language and I had to have a talk with the students when it was apparent that their mentor didn't care. They apologized and stopped.

I just object to the train of thought that seems to say that cursing is part of the work environment so it's OK to let the kids swear away.

It's not censorship it's teaching the right thing.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by moojoe

...FIRST is very largely about replicating the real world....I feel that if you have a problem with someone cursing, tell them, but unless theres a kid around us or something, dont expect everyone to change something that happens in the real world.

Bzzzt! Wrong answer. FIRST is very largely about changing the world. We do expect people to act in a "better" way, and thus to improve the real world.

[GaryVoshol]

For those who find nothing wrong with swearing at FIRST events, try slipping a few expletives into your Chairman's presentation and see the reaction you get. Then have the students use the same words in the classrooms they return to on Monday morning.

It's not simply a case of inappropriate words in places where women (*) and children might hear them. It's a case of using inappropriate words in inappropriate places. A quick slip in the heat of the moment is one thing, but if you can't string three sentences together without using a dozen swear words, you need to re-evaluate your speech patterns.

(*) - by the way, in a case that went all the way to the Michigan Supreme Court a few years ago, a law was invalidated regarding swearing in front of women. A guy was tipped out of his canoe and let out a string that could be heard half a mile away. He was brought up on charges, but eventually the conviction was overturned and the case dismissed because the law specified it applied in the presence of women.

[Akash Rastogi]

As per our team, the upper classmen know not to curse, the freshman and us sophomores still get too riled up though sometimes. I recently made a presentation that addressed the issue and it actually worked. The freshies realized that they are representing an award winning team and that "got to them"

I'm not sure if you can really "ban" it from competition though, like stated above, its human and its just like any other competition where kids are having fun and also losing/winning. Now, you might say that its not like any other competition, but that b/c kids actually learn here in FIRST, other than that, it is still a competition that we all take very seriously. And in serious competition comes serious involvement. This could lead to some cursing if a robot topples over in an eliminations match or if it gets disabled in your last qualifier. It really hurts.

That's my own $0.02 though. MORT already discourages regular cussing as an adjective for any sentence-be it the sutdent is angry or using it for the sole purpose of as an adjective.

[JaneYoung]

It's pretty simple to me.
a. cussing/foul language under any circumstances shows a lack of professionalism and respect for self, team, and organization.

b. cussing/foul language shows lack of restraint and self control.
There is more to the competition aspect of FIRST than controlling the robot, there is the self-control factor.

Kindness and respect are a big part of how we conduct ourselves as members of FIRST.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Cuss and swear words are in the English language. They have their place within the language and a time and place for their usage.

That being said, people need to learn to tailor their language to their audience (or possible audience). Since there are many different people around the pits (children, men, women, etc,etc,etc) we should be on our best behavior and choose words that have the least chance of offending anyone.

I doubt very many of you would use cuss and swear words at a job interview. The reason for that is that you are trying to make a good impression upon the person that you are interviewing with. Even though that is a pressure packed interview, you still only use proper unoffensive language. The same should be in the pits of a FIRST competition. Whether you realize it or not, you are making an impression of FIRST in all people that pass by your pit.

I wonder if FIRST has ever considered installing a 'primal scream' room at each regional.

[K-Dawg]

First of all I was not talking about the occasional slip. We were pitted by three teams that used foul language regularly in their conversation.

As per my up bringing Foul language is never appropriate but less appropriate around Young ladies and families. I would not want someone cursing around my mother, sister, or daughter. Does this make me less of a person? No, I believe it shows proper manners and concern for others.

Thanks for all the feedback,
K-dawg

[D_Price]

Which teams were they so that we could be able to address the issue.

[JaneYoung]

Many teams have a code of conduct as part of their expectations within their team. It is often written up in their handbook, business plan, and/or agreement that is signed at the beginning of the year, stating that the team member is aware of the expectations and rules and will abide by them. This would include mentors,students, parents who are members of the team.

[D_Price]

It is a simple lack of respect and conduct of goodness to others. It is just rude that ppl. would include themselves in a vulgar langauge.

[Chrisms]

Originally Posted by lilstogi11

As per our team, the upper classmen know not to curse, the freshman and us sophomores still get too riled up though sometimes. I recently made a presentation that addressed the issue and it actually worked. The freshies realized that they are representing an award winning team and that "got to them"

I'm not sure if you can really "ban" it from competition though, like stated above, its human and its just like any other competition where kids are having fun and also losing/winning. Now, you might say that its not like any other competition, but that b/c kids actually learn here in FIRST, other than that, it is still a competition that we all take very seriously. And in serious competition comes serious involvement. This could lead to some cursing if a robot topples over in an eliminations match or if it gets disabled in your last qualifier. It really hurts.

That's my own $0.02 though. MORT already discourages regular cussing as an adjective for any sentence-be it the sutdent is angry or using it for the sole purpose of as an adjective.

i'd like to add on to what Akash said. Since this OP is a mentor, and thus out of school quite some time i'd imagine, I'd suggest you ask your school to allow you to eat lunch in the cafeteria one day. You'll think that FIRST kids are angles compared to what you hear in the cafeterias.

that being said, i don't advocate any sexist comments, cursing, etc. But we are all human, and i'm sure you yourself have caught yourself muttering a curse when your bot breaks.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by Hell918

Which teams were they so that we could be able to address the issue.

I don't think a public announcement should be made as to what teams have people who swear on them and who's do not.

Please let's not turn this into a witch hunt here & blacklist certain teams.

K-Dawg knows who it was, and came to us for some advice. If they run into this situation again, they have to make a decision as to what to do.

Let's not single out the swearing team. This isn't about singling out the bad apples, it's about how to deal with the folks who aren't acting as professional as you would like them to if the case arises.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Chrisms

i'd like to add on to what Akash said. Since this OP is a mentor, and thus out of school quite some time i'd imagine, I'd suggest you ask your school to allow you to eat lunch in the cafeteria one day. You'll think that FIRST kids are angles compared to what you hear in the cafeterias.

You think high school is bad...Try college. 'Nuff said.

If you ever hear me cursing, come over and knock me over the head or otherwise get my attention and tell me about it. I try not to curse, but we're all human...