At Competition

[Racer26]

Oh dave, what would the community do without you to play devils advocate for EVERY statement anyone makes?

[Dan Petrovic]

Originally Posted by jumpe1990

And a it's a bit chauvinistic (sp?) to target males as the majority source of the problem

Hehe. One of our female adults used to be in the Navy. You can imagine what she says from time to time. She does work for the school, so she does have a habit of softening her voice before saying anything questionable.

With Dean's homework about getting more outside attention, it would make sense that we'd have a lot more younger citizens coming to watch. There are already many children coming with parents of competing students. FIRST could make an announcement at the beginning of each competition reminding that there are guests and children around and to try and keep foul language controlled.

However, Enforcing this should go back to the teams.

[JaneYoung]

I'm going back to the OP's opening post.
The concern is for the members of the team and the families that are in the area touring the pits. I believe we promote FIRST as being a family friendly event.

How do you know potential judges or sponsors aren't among those touring the pits? Many judges come from corporate sponsors and teams are always trying to develop stronger partnerships along these lines. Would you want your team to be responsible for having a potential judge or sponsor for FIRST change their mind because of your team's attitudes and behaviors?
--
I respect the concerns the OP had regarding the team and the families that were walking by. While at events, walk through the pits and see how many teams you can find that have pit and drive crews in which the majority are female. See if those teams are in the majority as a whole. Cussing and foul language aren't gender biased, trust me I know - but given the work atmosphere in the pit area and the gender majority of many of the crews, it can sometimes feel that way.

[Danny McC]

I don't really every use bad language on the competitions or in the pits. I mean is there really any reason to use the language in the competition for any reason? I mean I understand if something happen to you look your finger gets stuck and it causes you a great amount of pain. But even than you should really check your surroundings first. There are always little kids in the pits walking around with parents and siblings on the teams. Using that kind of language around little kids is even worse the using it around the Judges and Sponsors. I know that last year when in the pits after our last match I was showing my little cousins around the pits and helping them get buttons and the such. I guess something wrong happened to someone and as we were walking by they dropped the F-Bomb. My cousins didn't say anything but thats not the kinda language I want my 6 and 10 year olds cousins hearing. Thts all.

Hm. My opinion on this issue is short and somewhat bitter: I have my First Amendment. If someone has an issue with how I talk, and how I express myself, it is up to them to confront me about it. I won't bow to ANY rule prohibiting speech of ANY kind.

As for the whole swearing being not that great for many reasons, this is a proper place to tout the GP flag: Act as though your grandmother were watching, and all will be well. If a situation is hectic/stressful enough to warrant swearing in front of a grandmother, then by all means, fire at will. But otherwise, express yourself in a professional manner, based on surroundings and conversation. We're a group of engineers (or wanna be engineers...), we should be able to self regulate this issue on our own. Oh wait, we already do.

[Mr. D]

K-Dawg,

I would like to apologize for any problems you had in Pittsburgh. I myself have occasionally slipped at competition and the disappointment shown on one of my mentors face reminds me to get my words right. If you addressed it with the organizers I'm sure it will be handled or checked into. You may have noticed the event was handled much differently this year. Last year we had fewer teams and yet felt as though our pits were smaller and congestion was a problem, this year much better. Small example but one worth noting. We in Pittsburgh want to build a FIRST Class event and afford visiting taems the opportunity to see what is good about Pittsburgh. Hopefully you will continue to come and allow us to fix the problems. As a teacher I share your concern about being responsible for your team. Your concerns are noted.

[IndySam]

LOL great timing.

Court Will Examine Profanity Rules

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by dlavery

For example, asking me not to swear in front of my grandmother was always sort of pointless - she was the one that taught me to swear.

And my grandmother washed my mouth out with soap. It didn't work. I still swear. I try not to swear in innappropriate places, like at FIRST events. I don't appreciate being sworn at, at FIRST events. Or given an attitude. I guess it's a matter of respect.

[K-Dawg]

Thanks for the apology and I can say you are not one of the teams I noticed this from and I am not trying to shed a cast over the Pittsburgh regional it just so happened that it was our first for 2008 and I had this same problem in 2007, not just in Pittsburgh. I am not saying I am holier-than-thou kind of thing. If I were to feel extreme pain you may hear me say things I shouldn’t of course I would apologize to anyone who may have heard what I said. Its not the slips we all occasionally may make it’s the teams I noticed that could not have a conversation without the inappropriate language. It really doesn’t have anything to do with the young ladies, all though they did notice it. It has to do with appropriate behavior, this feeling that I can say and do what I want no matter what anybody else thinks or feels is exactly “in my opinion” what is wrong with this country. We have lost the caring and respect for our fellow “man” or “women” and in turn have no respect for ourselves.

Thanks,
K-dawg

[Herodotus]

MY personal opinion on the matter is that though profanity shouldn't just be shouted out left and right, you can't really fault someone for letting one loose when they've just found out their robot exploded and they have to build it from scratch again, or some such thing(you get the idea). I try not to swear, and though I sometimes do I usually say it quietly to myself rather than shouting it out. In the heat of competition, it is somewhat therapeutic to curse "ye robot gods".

One thing we should remember is that words are just that, words. They only have the meaning we give to them. Profanity is only profane because we agree it is so. It has no inherent negative meaning. The only time I see it as being 100% wrong all the time is when it is directed at someone else. I NEVER swear at someone else. At the robot? At myself? Certainly, but never at someone else.

[Ljohn2040]

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

Hm. My opinion on this issue is short and somewhat bitter: I have my First Amendment. If someone has an issue with how I talk, and how I express myself, it is up to them to confront me about it. I won't bow to ANY rule prohibiting speech of ANY kind.

As for the whole swearing being not that great for many reasons, this is a proper place to tout the GP flag: Act as though your grandmother were watching, and all will be well. If a situation is hectic/stressful enough to warrant swearing in front of a grandmother, then by all means, fire at will. But otherwise, express yourself in a professional manner, based on surroundings and conversation. We're a group of engineers (or wanna be engineers...), we should be able to self regulate this issue on our own. Oh wait, we already do.

Hear Hear...
I am fortunate enough to work for an engineering firm that doesnt care who says what, when. However, we are mature enough to know when to let loose and when to think twice and speak once.
Having said that, I apologize if I offended anyone at BMR..

[PrincessJae]

you talk about high stress environments, and getting hurt, but a lot of the time I hear swearing in the pits for no good reason. Used at adjectives when telling a story or something-seriously as we are trying to be "professional" at FIRST and of course no one can outlaw it or punish you for it, but its all about image. The image of the program, and your team, especially when the judges are around. I guess it would just rely on each team to restrain themselves.

As for the female thing, seeing as I am one. I know the writer of this post did not mean it as a sexist thing nor should it be taken that way. Of course girls swear, and in many cases much more than a boy, but ive also learned growing up that there IS a certain respect that some men give out that is not sexist. Heck there is a guy at school that still tips his hat and greats me Miss Janessa. In this struggle for women to become independent a lot have mixed up chivalry with weakness. personally... id love it if when on a date i stood up to go to the bathroom my boyfriend stood up out of respect. its cute.

[dtengineering]

When I call students on their needless use of profanity at school, they always respond, "Sorry Mr. Brett"

I have to explain that they don't need to be sorry to me. They aren't using any words that I haven't heard before or offending me in any great fashion. Rather they are making themselves appear uneducated and uncreative by failing to use the appropriate adjectives, verbs and nouns to appropriately describe their feelings. In the process they are devaluing profanity.

There hasn't been a build season yet where I haven't let slip, around students... boys and girls (haven't quite figured out why that matters, but, as they say... whatever...) with a frustrated, quiet, but clearly audible curse. It usually happens somewhere around the fourth week, and rarely happens more than once.... and it captures attention.

Swearing is a matter of supply and demand... swear all the time about nothing and the words mean nothing, curse rarely, and for the right reason, and the words have power.

Helping young people to learn when it is appropriate to curse, and when it is not, is just one of the many aspects of education that never appear in the curriculum guides.

Jason

[Mr. Freeman]

Originally Posted by Joe Matt

Is the money going to fund the new church roof? (sorry, I love Hot Fuzz)

That's the first thing I thought of when I heard of that idea too. I suppose using language like the censored version of Hot Fuzz does would be an interesting solution as well.


Anyway, I think that a lot of people are trying to apply a blanket policy of "it's always OK to swear" or "It's never OK to swear."
That simply isn't the case.
Would you swear when giving your chairman's presentation, talking to little children, in front of your grandmother, in front of potential clients? No.

I don't think anyone is trying to advocate putting swear words into speech for the purposes of swearing, and I don't think anyone wants to hear someone whose vocabulary consists mainly of swear words.

However, the occasional swear word isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. What else are you going to say when you're 80% done machining a part when you slip and put one tiny piece of it just outside of tolerance? It would be great if the majority of people could just say "whoops, oh well" and start over. In reality, this generates a large amount of frustration which, given no outlet, isn't a good thing. It's going to come out eventually, either in the form of a swear in the machine shop, or something else that perhaps actually damages the surrounding objects.

Swearing once or twice when you drill a hole in the wrong place despite your best efforts to measure properly, or when you run your arm into the overpass and snap it in half (actually did that), isn't atrocious behavior.

There's a time and a place for these words. Occasionally, the time and place is in the pit area. Just use some common sense when doing it. (I.E. Not when small children are around, not when judges are around, don't say it loud enough for anyone in the next pit to hear, etc.)

[suequilter]

I have been watching this thread. I believe it is the responsibility of each team to determine the standards of decorum and civility they will strive for. Each team tries to attain gracious professionalism in a number of ways. Just having this discussion may create an awareness of the issue which is great.

As someone who has attended more than her share of events and volunteered at regionals, I shudder at the thought of having the "language police" riding herd on our teams. At times the zeal and power exhibited by the adult volunteers has been a tad over the top!!

We need allow each team to set their own standard of behavior for appropriate language, manners etc. Learning the culture of FIRST is a journey, not a given.

We teach and learn by example and action. Thanks for listening.