Legality of Team 190's Mechanism?

[SU 39]

This thread is not meant in any way to take away from the creativity of team 190. I personally think it is in theory, one of the coolest ideas I've seen this year. However, I just thought I'd bring this Q&A answer up to share.
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=9187
Does this mean that Team 190's hurdling mechanism is illegal?

[DarkFlame145]

can we see a pic of what you are talking about?

[SU 39]

I have no pictures of it in action, but perhaps this would be helpful?
http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/team.php?team=190

Edit: Qualifcation match 45, approximately 55 seconds, but it should continue all the way around and released on the other side of the red overpass for a hurdle.

[EricH]

Now that the GDC has responded, 190's entire strategy has been declared illegal. At least one other team has the same problem, if the Q&As are anything to go by.

The response indicated is a reversal of this Q&A. I just hope 190 is done competing for the year. Unfortunately, I don't think they are.

[Daniel Bathgate]

Wow. I never realized the effect that crossing a line vs breaking a plane had on 190's design. That does appear to say that 190 should have received a penalty every time they hurdled, for a grand total of -2 points per hurdle. Which is a shame, as I do not think that 190's design violated the spirit of <G22> as the arm was always moving in a counterclockwise direction.

(Hey, finally a positive comment for the SVR refs differing from the GDC is in order for allowing the design!)

This will really be painful for 190 at the Championships. I wonder if they will use their arm in a slightly less awesome way and hurdle while lapping? Anyways, that was one really creative design.

And a disclaimer: I may be a bit biased from being on 190s elimination alliance

[jgannon]

This video shows their mechanism in action:
http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...p?matchid=5183

Their robot appears to be legal from an inspection standpoint, and should be permitted to compete. However, per <G22>, they should be assessed a 10-point penalty every time their arm extends into the previous quadrant, such as at 1:07 in the linked video. This Q&A response should be nothing new... it only reaffirms the way the rule has been written since kickoff.

[T3_1565]

there arm doesn't seem to cross any line in a clockwise direction when I saw them on the webcast.

I love the idea though.. I sat there watching going.... "wow..... I should of thought of that"


PS. Doesn't the whole robot have to cross the line before G22 comes into play?? I have seen people drive to the line, have part of them cross it and still back up

[EricH]

Originally Posted by T3_1565

there arm doesn't seem to cross any line in a clockwise direction when I saw them on the webcast.

Their arm might not, but does their suction device?
Edit: after watching the video Joey linked to, their arm most definitely crosses the lane divider.

[SU 39]

That is rather unfortunate for team 190 or rather it sucks like both team 190 and our(846) gripper mechanism. They even got an award at SVR for "scoring while not even moving an inch."

[T3_1565]

Originally Posted by EricH

Their arm might not, but does their suction device?
Edit: after watching the video Joey linked to, their arm most definitely crosses the lane divider.

I did see that after I posted, I watched the link and it does cross the line (he posted as I was writing )

This is too bad.. I love the design

[Akash Rastogi]

I have to say, that is a really awesome robot and by far the coolest concept I've seen this year. Especially considering a lot of people on their team have a hard time being able to get enough time to work on the robot.

One of the suckiest robots I've ever seen

[Guy Davidson]

Originally Posted by EricH

The response indicated is a reversal of this Q&A

I guess it is. The GDC say it would be legal, and do not mention G22 in their response. Maybe because the arm always moves in the counter-clockwise direction (breaking the plan from the opponent's home stretch into the quadrant in between). However, it still does break the plan into the previous quadrant, without ever leaving their home stretch. I really don't know how to interpret this.

[DonRotolo]

It seems to me that having part of the robot in Quadrant 4 before ever leaving Quadrant 1 is a technical violation of <R22>, exactly the same as if you drove from Q1 partly into Q4 during the match.

[Stillen]

In my most humble opinion, it just looks like that 190 did some very good research and found a legal way, call it a loop hole if you must, to play AND conquer this game..... Kudos from me...... I'm sure there is questioning out there, but why would a veteran team try and find a shortcut. They've already proven in the past several years they are very capable team..... I see no need for them to be questioned........ By the way how's the ankle Ken?

Mike

[dtengineering]

Well, looking at the robot on the video, it pretty clearly violates G22. Considering the discussion around G22 here on CD and in the Q&A forums, I am surprised this was not apparent to the team when they designed their robot. This is quite a different case than the "two robots" or "one robot" issue, where the team complied with all the rules and Q&A as they were written, but then were arbitrarily declared in non-compliance at the competition. It is ironic that in this case the team was given an award for their design, but 1519 was not.

However I believe there may be a way for this design to comply with G22. G22 states that the robot must break the plane in a clockwise direction. Would it be possible to build an extra appendage on to the end of the arm, such that the appendage rotates (assuming the home stretch is q1) from q2 into q3, and then back into the home stretch in a clockwise direction. I can't really show that here easily, but I'm sure someone with sufficient motivation could figure out what I am talking about.

OR the team could, on their first pass around, take a penalty, but drop a small part of the robot, attached by a cord, into each quadrant. At this point the robot would be in all four quadrants at the same time, and should no longer be subject to penalties.

I know, I know... this probably falls into the "lawyering" the rules concept.. at least the second suggestion does... the first one strikes me as being in keeping with both the wording and intent of the rules, but I do have some sympathy for the team, who probably never thought they were violating G22 when they designed this.... even though I think it is pretty clear that with their present set up, they do.

Jason