Defense, It's still here.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by hipsterjr

At Florida, in a few matches we played heavy defense (getting in between balls, pushing bots they were not hurdling, impeding for less than 5 sec) and it worked great. The only problem is that the refs frowned heavily on this. We were warned several times that "overdrive is and offense game." Was it like this at other regionals?

Somebody tell team 8 that! In SVR finals, they played legal (mostly) defense.

[danshaffer]

Originally Posted by EricH

Somebody tell team 8 that! In SVR finals, they played legal (mostly) defense.

"Ball denial" (as we're calling it now) was discussed at length between our drivers and rule lawyers and the head ref at SVR. Some of the illegal contact (for which we were penalized) occurred because it was behind the glass and so our drivers could not see where our robot or other robots were. The head ref understood this issue, but merely suggested that we send our robocoach to the other end of the field to mitigate this issue... not exactly an ideal solution.

[octothorpe]

Originally Posted by EricH

they played legal (mostly) defense.

Mostly is right. I like the defensive action in this year's game and I think Paly did a great job of taking that on, but during the second match of the SVR finals in particular I definitely saw some uncalled possession of the opposing alliance's trackball (i.e. trackball resting on their robot's arm).

[Josh Fox]

Defense is definitely alive and well in Overdrive. Just because it's not as obvious as in previous years, a good defensive player can truly alter the outcome of a game.

Things like movement of an opponent's ball, and even pausing for a second while in front of a team's robot can usually take their score down by at least a hurdle due to the time it takes to control these giant trackballs, and by the amount of time you can delay a team. Sure, you may not be blocking a ringer, but it's all of the subtle delays that can truly impact this year's game.

In my opinion anyway.

[Guy Davidson]

Originally Posted by octothorpe

Mostly is right. I like the defensive action in this year's game and I think Paly did a great job of taking that on, but during the second match of the SVR finals in particular I definitely saw some uncalled possession of the opposing alliance's trackball (i.e. trackball resting on their robot's arm).

The referees were only calling it when it was clearly intentional. If not, then I would be confused as to how it wasn't called during match number three, or its replay, where a blue trackball was sitting on their robot.

Regardless, we played defense as allowed be the rules as the refs were calling them. Our ball denial strategy was deemed perfectly legal by ourselves and the referees (assuming, of course, there is a lane around us, otherwise we're impeding). We believe Overdrive to be just like any other FIRST challenge from recent years: there are rules. Whatever you can do, that is legal according to the rules, is fair game. We play hard, but we play fair.

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by sumadin

The referees were only calling it when it was clearly intentional.

If you are intentionally playing defense on a ball and you posses it, even if it is accidental, it should be a penalty. <G29> doesn't specify intent. The only time it shouldn't be a penalty is when it is when it is caused by an opponent as per <G23> (like when a hurdled ball fall into a shooter bot).

I am not talking about any specific match example but just the rule in general. Trackball defense is legal and a good strategy in many cases. However, if the unintended side effects of a team's trackball defense is trackball possession then it is clearly a penalty and that team is responsible.

[XaulZan11]

After watching a fair amount of the regionals, I'm disapointed with the lack of 'traditional' defense found in the past two years. Instead of pushing the opposing alliance, teams are trying to get too cute with ball defense and thus not as effective. I think many teams are under the impression that 'defense is illegal', while its clearly not. Yes, there are some stricter rules (such as no defense on a robot in the act of hurdling--but how is that different from playing defense in the opponents homezone like last year?), but teams can still do many of the strategies and tactics that were super effective the past two years.

For example, why don't more teams push the opposing alliance while they are picking up the ball or moving around the track (not in thier homestrech)? Or, why don't more teams pin the other teams against the wall for 5 seconds (again, not while they are attempting to hurdler)? According to <G41>, "When a ROBOT has received a signal to pass (see Rule <G38>), or when the REFEREE signals that a ROBOT is pinning an opponent in place, the ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through." I don't see why a team couldn't pin a team against the wall for 5 seconds, let them pass and move to the next quadrent, pin them again, and so on.

I know some may feel this is 'against the intent of the rules'. I feel that as long as the rules don't prohibit the action, its a viable strategy. Unless you are part of the game creators, you cannont know the full intent of the rules.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

why don't more teams pin the other teams against the wall for 5 seconds (again, not while they are attempting to hurdler)? According to <G41>, "When a ROBOT has received a signal to pass (see Rule <G38>), or when the REFEREE signals that a ROBOT is pinning an opponent in place, the ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through."

I don't think you can do repeated pinning this year. You didn't quote all of that rule:

<G41> Permitting To Pass - When a ROBOT has received a signal to pass (see Rule <G38>), or when the REFEREE signals that a ROBOT is pinning an opponent in place, the ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through. ROBOTS that fail to do so within 6 seconds after the “signal to pass” shall receive a PENALTY. Repeated infractions will result in a YELLOW CARD being issued to the ROBOT.

It looks to me like if you keep pinning OR refusing to give way you can be yellow carded and ultimately DQ'd. That's a pretty big risk just to slow someone down.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

I don't think you can do repeated pinning this year.

It looks to me like if you keep pinning OR refusing to give way you can be yellow carded and ultimately DQ'd. That's a pretty big risk just to slow someone down.

Yes, I see what you mean, but I think what it means by 'repeat infractions' is repeat penalities, NOT repeat pinnings. Thus, you can pin someone for 5 seconds, not get a penalty and repeat. Anyone else agree with me or am I just reading the rules the wrong way?

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Yes, I see what you mean, but I think what it means by 'repeat infractions' is repeat penalities, NOT repeat pinnings. Thus, you can pin someone for 5 seconds, not get a penalty and repeat. Anyone else agree with me or am I just reading the rules the wrong way?

Ah, now I understand. You pin, then watch the ref counting, and just before they get to "6" you let the pinned robot go. So, you never commit a penalty at all. It could work, but you would need to have really good control to not step over that six second barrier. I think you are right now that I've thought about what you meant.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

...Thus, you can pin someone for 5 seconds, not get a penalty and repeat. Anyone else agree with me or am I just reading the rules the wrong way?

I think you're reading the rules the wrong way. Specifically look at this phrase:

Originally Posted by <G41>

...the ROBOT shall have 6 seconds to move out of the way and create a “passing lane” to allow the opposing ROBOT through.

If you move out of the way for just a moment and then repeat the pin, you haven't satisfied the requirement that you "allow the opposing ROBOT through."

[Joe Ross]

The following new Q/A answer has some important insight: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread...6357#post16357

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

If you move out of the way for just a moment and then repeat the pin, you haven't satisfied the requirement that you "allow the opposing ROBOT through."

You may be right. I was thinking of something like pinning the robot right after they hurdler and cross the finish line for five seconds, let them pass, then pin them for five more seconds in the next quadrent.

I'm not sure if this is the same as the example in the Q&A. In that example, the robot is not given the chance to use the passing lane and progress around the track. In my example, however, the pinning robot lets them move foward to the next quadrent or a good portion of the track before the next pin takes place.

[David Brinza]

It seems some teams have an adverse reaction to those teams that choose to employ defensive tactics. Right up until alliance selection occurs when they rather have those defensive teams with their alliance rather than against!

I've said this before and still believe it to be true: without defense, FRC becomes an robot exhibition rather than a game. Effective defense places a premium on robot speed & maneuverability, driver skill, situational awareness, scouting and coordination with alliance partners. BTW, defensive robots can still rack up scores for their alliance: knocking down balls and crossing lines in hybrid mode; clicking off a few laps and herding/feeding Trackballs to hurdling partners during tele-operated play.