A few thoughts on gracious proffesionalism by a rookie mentor...

[GaryVoshol]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that defense was totally prohibited. Please see the existing thread "Defense, It's still here" http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=61047 Note the quote from the GDC Q&A about defense being allowed.

At the Detroit Regional, the top penalties called were <G22>, <G42> and <G37>. 42 and 37 can both be considered anti-defense rules, or maybe more properly, defense-limiting rules.

[IndySam]

I am sorry that you were disappointed but defense has always been a part of the game. You should have seen the defense played the three previous years, this year is very tame compared to that.

I see nothing about playing defense that is not GP. It's part of the game and is a valid strategy that has always been around.

As far as you golf analogy, defense in golf is a mind game, a good golfer like TW is looking for every advantage they can get including messing with their opponents heads. It's not all GP either.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by IndySam

You should have seen the defense played the three previous years, this year is very tame compared to that.

I have watched videos of some of last years matches, and I believe that the behavior during some of those matches led to the rules this year to try to prevent some of that behavior. Once again, my opinion.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

I'm not sure where you got the idea that defense was totally prohibited.

I did not say that defense was totally prohibited. I merely said that the idea, the spirit of the game, and of FIRST, is to excel by achieving, not by preventing others from achieving (my opinion).

While some defense is legal by the rules, I do not believe that acting in a defense only mode, or intentionally damaging other robots displays gracious professionalism.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by martin417

I did not say that defense was totally prohibited. I merely said that the idea, the spirit of the game, and of first, is to excel by achieving, not by preventing others from achieving (my opinion).

While some defense is legal by the rules, I do not believe that acting in a defense only mode, or intentionally damaging other robots displays gracious professionalism.

You are correct that intentionally damaging another robot is not GP and should lead to disqualification.

[dsmoker]

I think one other thing to consider is that not all teams have the same resources in terms of money and mentors, and as a matter of strategy build a robot that is mainly defensive, within the rules of the game, in order to play as part of a successful alliance. I see nothing wrong with the "team" way of strategizing, as long as, as stated above, the idea is to play legal defense and not intentionally damage another team's robot. We have live on defense the past two years, and did so quite successfully. This year, we chose to go on the offensive and had a little bit of a tougher time because, although our robot did what we intended it to do, it could not hurdle as fast as robots built by other teams with more money and mentors (and therefore more sophisticated designs, control systems, etc.). Not that I am begrudging these teams their resources, I am just saying that, for teams like ours, defensive and strategizing as part of an alliance when desigining can be a path to success in the game itself. And this comes from a team that won this year's Johnson and Johnson Gracious Professionalism Award at the CT Regional.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by IndySam

You are correct that intentionally damaging another robot is not GP and should lead to disqualification.

Whether or not it's GP, it's still explicitly against the rules.

Originally Posted by <G37>

ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not in the spirit of the FIRST Robotics Competition and are not allowed. In all cases involving ROBOT-to-ROBOT contact, the TEAM may receive a PENALTY and/or their ROBOT may be disqualified if the interaction is inappropriate or excessive...

I haven't seen any of the matches from the Peachtree regional, so I can't comment on the quality or quantity of defense there. But I will risk a wee bit of stereotyping as I point out that about every other match had one or more rookie teams, and that rookie teams are more likely to produce robots that end up being more effective in preventing other teams from scoring than in scoring themselves. If your 'bot can't keep up with the other alliance in laps and hurdling, but can hold them back enough for your partners to keep up, I believe playing defense is the appropriate strategy.

[Taylor]

I would argue that playing defense usually allows your alliancemates more scoring opportunities - the ultimate in teamplay. It also adds to the game challenge - the truly great teams/alliances find ways to overcome defensive strategies.

[kaszeta]

Originally Posted by boiler

I would argue that playing defense usually allows your alliancemates more scoring opportunities - the ultimate in teamplay. It also adds to the game challenge - the truly great teams/alliances find ways to overcome defensive strategies.

Agreed. Heck, one of my favorite years as a mentor[1] was Aim High, because strategy was continuously adapting throughout the competition season, and there were lots of adjustments, counter-strategies, etc (our team re-wrote our autonomous modes several times, and would even change our mode as we saw the other team lining up).

A huge part of FIRST is the team interaction: seeing what other teams are doing, and reacting to it.

[1] Also one of my least favorite, since the 8.2V bug rearing itself at Manchester was one of the most frustrating experiences I've had... But that's another story.

[ebarker]

throwing in a couple of cents here .....

I didn't see but a few matches there but it did seem like a couple of them were a little rough. I hope no one perceives us as being an offender.

Our defensive strategy was to knock opposing alliances balls off the rack near the end game. Our other two strategies was to make laps and knock balls off the rack for alliance mates that needed the ball.

In one match the bot in front of us repeatedly kept backing into our arms and kept creating an entanglement, ultimately causing a 40 point penalty and a yellow card against us. This was the first time I can ever remember seeing a crowd booing loudly and I hope to never see that again.

We seemed to convince the referees the contact wasn't intentional but the score stands.

We went to the pit, cut the arms in half, changed the software, and followed 10 feet back from the robot in front, plenty of stopping distance on slick highways.

aarrghh

[A_Reed]

Originally Posted by martin417

I merely said that the idea, the spirit of the game, and of FIRST, is to excel by achieving, not by preventing others from achieving (my opinion).

Some would love to see this happen but it is not realistic. offensive players are not always gonna get away scott-free.

I'm no engineer but just as it is in every build season you have to overcome adversities to complete you robot within a set of parameters. I imagine real life engineering is the same way.

the adversities in the game would be teams that play defense (Legally) and the teams that overcome will be known at the end of the year as the teams with great strategy and a great robot.

[Boydean]

I agree with you on your concept on GP, I love hearing the different ways GP means to different people. But has stated not only is defense discouraged in the rules,but it is also a bad strategy in the long run for your team. Since your teams ranking score is based off your opponents raw score.

As stated here.

Originally Posted by Section 9.3.5

All teams on the winning ALLIANCE will receive a number of ranking points equal to the un-
penalized score (the score without any assessed penalties) of the losing ALLIANCE.
All teams on the losing ALLIANCE will receive a number of ranking points equal to their final
score (with any assessed penalties).
In the case of a tie, all participating teams will receive a number of ranking points equal to their
ALLIANCE score (with any assessed penalties).

Originally Posted by Section 9.3.8

The total number of ranking points earned by a team throughout their qualification matches,
divided by the number of matches played (excluding any SURROGATE matches), then truncated
to two decimal places, will be their ranking score.

Note: because your ranking score is derived directly from the match scores of your opponent
ALLIANCES, it is in your interest that both your ALLIANCE and the ALLIANCES you “defeat”
obtain a high score. The most valuable “WIN” results from a close, high-score match.

Although this is something that encourages GP and fair play, I have seen teams who completely discards this section and wipe out their opponents.

[Tom Bishop]

Last year we were rammed, pushed, harried, pinned, crashed into the rack, and generally knocked around at every opportunity. That's fine, it was part of the game.

In this year's game defense, compared to the year's before, was much more subtle. This year defense consisted of knocking opponents ball's down, delaying other teams from hurdling, knocking balls away from and out of opponents possession, protecting balls on the rack in the end game (sometimes by pushing, sometimes by sitting there), among other strategies. Vigorous interaction should be expected, designed for, and played. This is also fine, it's part of the game.

As others have stated, without defense FIRST games become an unexciting exhibition. On the field we compete like crazy to win, but we do so in a respectful manner. We help teams having trouble by getting their robots moving. We give each other tools and parts, programming and technical expertise. But on the field make sure your head is screwed on tight, because the opposing alliance will do everything it can to legally win.

Of course, deliberately damaging another robot is against the rules, and is very unGP. But it is difficult to judge intent when it is "your baby" out there being bashed around. Difficult for us, and difficult for the refs. It would also be GP to give teams the benefit of a doubt, and assume that their tactics are within the scope of the rules, as long as the regs don't warn, yellow card, or DQ them.

You guys had a great robot out there, and you should be proud.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Tom Bishop

In this year's game defense, compared to the year's before, was much more subtle. This year defense consisted of knocking opponents ball's down, delaying other teams from hurdling, knocking balls away from and out of opponents possession, protecting balls on the rack in the end game (sometimes by pushing, sometimes by sitting there), among other strategies. Vigorous interaction should be expected, designed for, and played. This is also fine, it's part of the game.

I may have overstated my position on defense. The strategies mentioned above are all legal, and I don't have a problem with them as far as they go. However, I saw much more aggressive defensive strategies, one particular incident stands out (because it happened to us). A team rammed our bot while it was attempting to knock a ball from the overpass, causing the bot to tilt and lift it's wheels from the ground, they then backed up a few feet and waited. Every time the bot was able to disengage from the overpass, they ran forward again, ramming the bot and entangling it in the overpass. This was repeated no less than 3 times. The other bot never attempted to score during the match, it merely sat and waited for our bot to free itself from the overpass. To me, this is a blatant violation of <G37>

<G37> ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not in the spirit of the FIRST Robotics Competition and are not allowed. In all cases involving ROBOT-to-ROBOT contact, the TEAM may receive a PENALTY and/or their ROBOT may be disqualified if the interaction is inappropriate or excessive.

The worst part about this particular instance is that it was totally unnecessary. At the outset of the match, our alliance partner broke a drive chain and was disabled, so the chances of our alliance winning were slim to none anyway, but it really frustrated the members of the drive team.

[Tom Bishop]

From what you have stated I would say that rule 37 was not violated since it has to do with "robot to robot" interaction. Entanglement is referring to another robot, not with a field element. Tipping over has to do with robot on it's side, wheels in the air. Robots can and do get tipped, but if it's not a high push, then it's likely a function of design.

However, I would agree that sitting there and deliberately pushing your bot in the position described is not in the spirit of a Gracious Professional, no matter what the rules say.

Don't let this experience sour you on FIRST. On balance, the positives far outweigh the negatives. I've been doing this 6 years now, and I have more fun every year, or so it seems. Hang in there!