scoring problems

[GBilletdeaux930]

(BTW this is not meant to be read as an angry, hate message but more as an informant to what can and probably will happen)

Alright so during our final quarterfinal match our flag was ripped off. The flag pole didnt fall off but the flag itself was on the floor. Apparently the lap counter too was unplugged. So now the judges completely stopped scoring our laps.

Now our robot is a lap bot, we are able to get 8-11 laps in a match and thats all we do. The flag was ripped off and our lap scoring ended at 2 laps. The final score was 54-70. We only needed 8 more laps to have a tie and i don't know how many we got until a video comes out but yea.

Sadly we didnt relize this till the final semi-finals match when someone brought it up and we didnt have video evidence to say that we hadn't lost the match...

This isn't right... Our alliance suffered because the flag had been through too much rough play and hadn't been repaired suffciently. Also the judges could have manualy counted the laps which they did for us in one of our early qualifying matches when our lap counter came loose.

Whats done is done i know... i just wanted to bring it up in hopes that this mistake will not happen again. And i don't think this would have changed the outcome of the Wisconsin Regional. The winning alliance did an amazing job. (And my personal congrats to C.O.R.E)

[GaryVoshol]

You do realize that refs scoring laps and sensors scoring laps are two totally independent things, right?

The refs push buttons when they see your robot go by. If it doesn't have a flag, they're going to look to see what flag is on the ground.

[GBilletdeaux930]

Well then i don't know why they stopped because they stopped scoring us after the first 25 seconds...

[Wayne C.]

There have been numerous scoring errors at the events we have been participating in and monitoring. Some of them have been blatant and status changing. We have watched hurdles ignored, hurdles awarded to the opposite team, teams given points for crossing lines in auto after the buzzer, laps mis- multiplied- you name it.There is no recourse to deal with them in the hurried nature of the rounds and the lag in the posting of scores.


It is a part of this game that we may not like but have to live with. It goes right up there with the flurry of penalties.

When scoring is so complex and so much is going on at once it is a breeding ground for human error.


WC

(is that wind I hear?)

[Racer26]

I really dont think this is one of those things we should just bend over and take. FIRST needs to realize that the teams wont put up with sub-par scoring/reffing/rule enforcement.

The number of scoring errors I've seen this year is totally outlandish, and I haven't even BEEN to a regional yet.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by GBilletdeaux930

we didnt have video evidence to say that we hadn't lost the match...

FIRST doesn't accept video evidence or video replay when discussing matches and making rulings, so I don't think this would have helped you.

What can you learn from the situation? Would taping the connection to keep it in place have helped you at all? Could your flag be mounted in a better place on your robot? Just some things to keep in mind. I haven't seen the match you're describing, so I don't know if these things would have helped or not.

[Matt H.]

Originally Posted by smurfgirl

FIRST doesn't accept video evidence or video replay when discussing matches and making rulings, so I don't think this would have helped you.

What can you learn from the situation? Would taping the connection to keep it in place have helped you at all? Could your flag be mounted in a better place on your robot? Just some things to keep in mind. I haven't seen the match you're describing, so I don't know if these things would have helped or not.

I don't think this one can be pinned on the team. FIRST has been very clear about where the flag must be and how the connection must be made. I'm not even sure if teams are allowed to tape the connection. I believe first needs to step up and say that this game is too complicated to be scored accurately and apologize. 1726 was shocked in Arizona to find that we routinely were scored several hurdles lower than we scored (sometimes due to touching the ball as it came down, sometimes due to lack of counting).

[GBilletdeaux930]

Originally Posted by smurfgirl

FIRST Could your flag be mounted in a better place on your robot? Just some things to keep in mind. I haven't seen the match you're describing, so I don't know if these things would have helped or not.

Just to clarify, our flag pole did not come out, rather the flag itself was ripped off the pole

[bigbeezy]

Originally Posted by Matt H.

(sometimes due to touching the ball as it came down, ...).

if that happened then you wouldn't get points anyways. that would be driver error not scorer error. but i do see what you mean a number of times hurdles have been missed or whatever.

The refs are doing the best they can. our flag was pulled out of our flag holder one match but as far as i could tell we still got the laps for it. The best i can say is that it happens, they are doing their upmost best. but when 6 robots are all crossing the same line in about 5 seconds and you're trying to check who's crossing the line, did anyone cross back, any hurdles, and any other penalties you try and get it right every single time. I feel the refs are doing an excellent job concidering how difficult this year's game is.

[LCDenominator]

We had problems as well with the lap counter. During one of our semifinal matches in OKC, we had two laps not counted and we lost the match by 4 points. Sometimes I wonder if the technology isn't being relied on too much in scoring.

[GBilletdeaux930]

After seeing the official video, i have relized that they were counting our laps correctly but when they displayed the final score, the line counts for hybrid were displayed instead of the teleoperated lap counts so it had said we only crossed 2 lines.

confusing...

[Racer26]

At Waterloo Regional they decided they didnt like the lap counter on Thursday, and just counted all the laps by hand. Not being a ref I can't say it wouldn't have been a small pain in the butt, but nobody complained, that I knew of.

[Mr. Lim]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

At Waterloo Regional they decided they didnt like the lap counter on Thursday, and just counted all the laps by hand. Not being a ref I can't say it wouldn't have been a small pain in the butt, but nobody complained, that I knew of.

The Waterloo crew has built up a history of taking excruciating pains to "get it right."

I remember the 20 minute ref conference after Q2-4 in 2007 where they essentially did a forensic reconstruction of the match to figure out how a VERY strange double inadvertant self-spoil during a de-spoil should have correctly been scored. They initially announced the wrong score with wrong alliance winning, but retracted it immediately. After the score was corrected, the other alliance ended up winning 28-27. It took a lot of guts to reverse the decision on a deciding eliminations match, and by such a small margin. But they got it right... they did a great job.

I appreciated the fact that they manually counted laps at Waterloo, as well as kept track of hybrid scores on paper. Throughout all our matches, I knew when we picked up G22s and G42s without even looking at the refs. Without fail, the refs caught us each and every time. Never once were we broadsided by a penalty we didn't already know we earned.

[smurfgirl]

[quote=Matt H.;720110]I don't think this one can be pinned on the team. FIRST has been very clear about where the flag must be and how the connection must be made. I'm not even sure if teams are allowed to tape the connection.QUOTE]

To clarify... I wasn't talking about the 51" vertical requirement, I meant a place on their robot which would keep it safe. Some robots have better and worse places to put the flags. Also, at the Connecticut Regional, we were told by the head ref (and it was recommended) that we could put a small piece of electrical tape over the connection to make sure it stayed in place.

[Racer26]

Regardless of the lap counter, it was stated that humans WOULD be counting from day 1, and from the sounds of it, they have not.

Thankfully GTR has many of the same staff as Waterloo, and the excellently consistent reffing will continue there.