IFI vs FTC? Both offering competitions for next year!

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I believe if you check the facts, IFI has used their contacts to open robotics competitions world wide. They took a good idea and saved it from extinction when Radio Shack couldn't market it. Then expanded it, added their own great customer service and got people to sign on to it as a great platform. (Personally, I believe they did that to help kick start FIRST in foreign countries.) Yes, I hope they are making money at it. They deserve to make some profit. But for my money they are not exploiting anyone by doing so.
After watching IFI and their reps for their many years in FIRST, and knowing their commitment to this program, I look forward to their continued success. Their level of committment and customer service is unknown in modern day business. How many corporations do you know that would pick up design of a critical part like the radio modem, and actually be able to deliver the part (including the critical FCC testing and type approval) in quantity in just a few months all to satisfy just one customer?

[basicxman]

if they have a competiton next year in ontario ill do both because ive got 1K worth of vex sitting in my room and registration is free

but im sticking with FTC and the new platform for now

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by basicxman

if they have a competiton next year in ontario ill do both because ive got 1K worth of vex sitting in my room and registration is free

but im sticking with FTC and the new platform for now

Just curious to why you, or anyone, would make a decision either way before we even know the full details of the new platform and Vex's competing competitions.

The way I see it is we have a known with Vex's hardware, and (for most of us) and unknown with their competition.
We have an unknown with FTC's hardware, but a known with their competition.
I won't weight the two against eachother, or directly compare at the moment, but I think if either side tries to pretend they are what they aren't it won't end pretty. Let's not start a Holy War and contend against eachother. Say what your platform can and can't do, don't try and say "we're better because of X,Y,Z." It won't end well.

[Beth Sweet]

Well, I'm glad to see a new opportunity. I know in MI, even if we want to, we can't do Tech, so the opportunity to do IFI may be a way to get more area schools involved in science/tech type things!

[talltree357]

Right now I am reserving my judgment until I see what the new cost and final format of FTC is for next year. I admit, I really enjoy having and designing with my Vex system right now and don't have a budget to invest in a second set up. I think many of us are sitting in the period of let's wait until the grand unveiling and see, is the cost worth it compared to staying with IFI and Vex. I just hope we find out the cost soon so I can make a decision and work on a budget for next year.

[ManicMechanic]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Just curious to why you, or anyone, would make a decision either way before we even know the full details of the new platform and Vex's competing competitions.

If our team were just graduating out of FLL, it would be a tough call, but the fact that we have $1K+ of Vex equipment biases us heavily in the Vex direction. That initial kit was hard to come by -- one kid basically gave up a robotics camp opportunity and diverted the funds into Vex equipment for the school.

On an annual budget of about $500, having a low registration fee is a big plus for us, and expanding our team of 7 students (and growing) into 2 teams actually looks practical for next year (much needed, as 70 fingers tend to get in each others' way ) Money isn't the only consideration, but it's an important one for a low-budget team, and Vex has the potential to deliver a reasonable experience for considerably less.

Beyond IFI's "official" events, the lower cost also will allow us to increase exposure to robotics in our area: 2 other local Vex teams plan to expand in the same way as ours, and we are looking to form 10 teams from the 3 and hold local events. Being able to hold low-cost events locally, we're more likely to snag neighborhood spectators and pick up even more teams.

We wish FTC well and hope that it gets quality teams to continue doing what it does best. Who knows, if we get more money and the students are itching for a change, we may be back.

[Daviddavid]

[quote=Lil' Lavery;722818]The way I see it is we have a known with Vex's hardware, and (for most of us) and unknown with their competition.
We have an unknown with FTC's hardware, but a known with their competition.
I QUOTE]

Two different people I talked to today about all this at the Davis event said to me that it's cool they don't have to worry about Vex being able to run great events. I said I it's one thing to expect a good program but there's really no way to know until we see how the World event in May goes. But they said - you don't know the people at IFI, they got people who have been running these events for years and they know how to do it as good or better than anyone. So at least for them, they feel totally confident that the new Vex program has a great platform and will have a great program with good competitions.
I'm assuming this is true, at least I hope it is, and it does sound like another reason to be excited or hopeful about the new Vex competitions. I kind of thought it might take them a year or two to learn how to run events like I was at today, but it sounds like they already have lots of experience doing it. I thought that was interesting, but maybe I'm reading to much into it.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Daviddavid

Two different people I talked to today about all this at the Davis event said to me that it's cool they don't have to worry about Vex being able to run great events. I said I it's one thing to expect a good program but there's really no way to know until we see how the World event in May goes. But they said - you don't know the people at IFI, they got people who have been running these events for years and they know how to do it as good or better than anyone. So at least for them, they feel totally confident that the new Vex program has a great platform and will have a great program with good competitions.
I'm assuming this is true, at least I hope it is, and it does sound like another reason to be excited or hopeful about the new Vex competitions. I kind of thought it might take them a year or two to learn how to run events like I was at today, but it sounds like they already have lots of experience doing it. I thought that was interesting, but maybe I'm reading to much into it.

By no means am I saying IFI will do a poor job running events. In fact, I'd tend to lean towards the side that they would do an awesome job. They do have two people with FRC GDC experience within their ranks (Tony Norman and Jason Morella), and a number of others with experience in running competitions, teams, and other events. But the bottom line is that we haven't really seen their event(s) yet, and we don't know how the whole system will be set up next year. Until we see some more information, I'm still chucking that up there as a question mark, although I'm very hopeful and confident that it will turn out well.

[Ben Mitchell]

I am not working for either FIRST or IFI, so all this is strictly me.

First off, my thoughts on the Vex platform can be found via this link:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=65701

Secondly, and ( I think more importantly to this discussion)

The "FIRST versus IFI" mentality is WRONG.

Let me state this again:

It is WRONG to say that IFI and FIRST are in competition. The title of this thread is a misnomer.

Go to the FIRST web site: look at the mission statement of FIRST. Actually, I'll even reprint it here:

"Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication and leadership."

Now, tell me how IFI's robotics program doesn't satisfy this mission? What is important here is what is being produced: the Vex platform is something a lot of people have invested a lot of money in thus far - it is something schools can afford and teachers can use in the classroom. It is a known quantity. It is an educational tool that people have already invested in, and it WORKS. Why is it bad that someone has begun a new competition which uses this tool? If IFI didn’t do it, someone would have. I would have. I already have a game and field designed and built.

This new FTC platform is an unknown variable. But that does not mean it won't work or is inherently bad. I think that the new FTC platform will be more akin to a "mini FRC" program rather than something completely different. Perhaps the new FTC will be the program FIRST administration wanted it to be, and Vex/IFI's competition can be a discrete entity with its own advantages and disadvantages. One is not better than the other: they best serve students in different situations.

The two should not be considered in competition: why can't schools do both? No one needs to pick just one. Both are tools, like anything else, and people will use the one that works the best. FIRST the organization and IFI the organization are irrelevant details in satisfying the educational and ideological purpose for which these programs can be used.

The "Us Versus Them" and "IFI is for profit" mentality is harmful and unproductive: what is important is the end goal of the program, and IFI's program and the founding vision of FIRST share the same overarching goals. Everyone should be on the same team, even if the uniforms might be different. I’m looking forward to the new IFI game and I’m interested in having more concrete information about the FTC platform. The two are not mutually exclusive.

As a side note: I doubt IFI will be making much money from their competition: they make that selling Vex parts. I suspect the IFI events will be much cheaper than FIRST registration because of this. It makes business sense and the students still benefit. No one loses just because a business is involved. I think their products are reasonably priced and by nature are scalable for schools and other programs to build a robotics program, if not in one shot, than over some time.Scalability is key here, as is accessability, as I've expounded on in my six page monster of a post.

That being said, I think Vex is too good of a product and educational tool to abandon at the snap of the fingers, and I think those of you that are trying to bash IFI for having their own robotics competition really need to take a step back and realize what you are doing here. FIRST should not be able promoting FIRST at the exclusion of all other programs. FIRST is about the inspiration and recognition of science and technology. Whether or not that inspiration comes from FIRST is absolutely irreverent.

I think Edward R. Murrow stated it very eloquently when he said in a 1958 speech:

" This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires and lights in a box."

He was talking, of course, about television, but his message just as easily can apply to any medium, including this one. What you put into the program is what you get out of it.

The medium is NOT the message.

[IndySam]

I don't understand why there has to be a IFI vs FTC battle. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses, why do we need to decide which is better?

Here in Indiana we have great Vex program thanks in no small part to the efforts of Dan Ward. The one kit competitions have been a great success.

FTC is a great rout for programs that don't have the budget or other resources for FRC.

Each is a great training ground for new students joining an FRC team

We haven't mentioned other programs like BEST who have their own strengths.

I know FRC teams who use one or a couple of these competing programs for pre-season FRC training with great success.

Can't we just all get along.

[Mary]

Originally Posted by IndySam

I don\\\'t understand why there has to be a IFI vs FTC battle. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses, why do we need to decide which is better?

I\'ve been thinking the same thing reading these threads. The team I worked with in Colorado couldn\'t go on because the fundraising and time was just too much for the teacher, mentors and school. Vex and FTC seem like the programs trying to make robotics doable for all middle and high schools around the country, so good for them. Two programs is better than one anyway, so schools have a choice. That way if one program isn\'t good, gets too expensive or is managed poorly, there will be another option out there for schools. If these programs can get affordable robots into thousands of schools around the country and hold great competitions, then I hope they both do great.
I\'m back east now and may try to help start a team out here. I would never try to start an FRC team, but it sounds like I can start a Vex team and maybe a FTC team depending on the cost. Plus the two programs should provide some good incentive to keep their costs down for the schools, which is really all that matters.

[Libby K]

I am reserving judgement on the IFI-vs-FTC decision until I see both in action, in person. However, I will say this;

I like the idea of choice and variety between competitions. My hope for the IFI competition is that it will stick to the goals and ideals of FIRST (the great things, like gracious professionalism and the concept of inspiring youth to follow career paths in science and technology) even without the FIRST platform.

I'm not sure 1923 as a robotics team will be able to do even one of these two great options because of funding, but I would love to be a part of both competitions in whatever way I can.

I sincerely hope that anyone who becomes involved in the IFI/VEX competitions does not leave FIRST; it would truly be a shame to see people go. But IFI has presented themselves well and gained a good following through FIRST and I'm looking forward to seeing their successes in the future.

My $0.02.