Go to Post In the end, you get out of FIRST what you put in. - BlueLipstick [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 07:13
Justin Ridley Justin Ridley is offline
Registered User
FRC #0118 (Robonauts)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 49
Justin Ridley has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Ridley has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Ridley has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Ridley has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Ridley has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Ridley has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Ridley has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Ridley has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Ridley has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Ridley has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Ridley has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Justin Ridley
Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

So during an early match at Lone Star we managed to bounce the ball over the opposite alliance station a couple times. Afterwards we were warned we would receive a penalty and an eventual a yellow flag if we continued to do this.

Afterwards we toned down the launcher and tried to be careful where we launched from to prevent the bounce. We however got a "lucky" bounce on a Saturday match and received a 10pt penalty.

I'm not saying that this might not have been legit, I suppose the refs to have authority to deem something unsafe and penalize it, but I am curious if any other regionals saw this penalty. It was a bit frustrating worrying about an unintentional side effect of wanting to be able to shoot from distance on the field that didn’t seem to be outlined in the rules.

Regardless, I suppose next weekend we’ll dial launcher power down from an eleven to about a ten.
__________________
-- Justin Ridley --
20 years
27 --> 221 --> 857 --> 118
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 07:22
GaryVoshol's Avatar
GaryVoshol GaryVoshol is offline
Cogito ergo arbitro
no team
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Royal Oak, MI
Posts: 5,762
GaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

What rule did the referees cite when giving the penalty?

When the ball goes out of bounds, it is retrieved and put back on the field asap, when safe. If "asap" means you lose the opportunity to use the ball for 20, 30, 40 seconds, isn't that enough of a penalty to discourage booting the ball out?
__________________
(since 2004)
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 07:48
petek's Avatar
petek petek is offline
What would Dave do?
AKA: Peter Kieselbach
FRC #3654 (Tech Tigers)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Middletown, CT
Posts: 923
petek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to petek
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

Prior to week one events the FTAs (and I believe the Head Refs) were warned to watch out for balls being launched or bounced off-field. Teams were to be given a warning and if they didn't correct it would be cited for violation of <S01>. The concern is that a bystander might get hurt by the ball (bystander bowling is a no-no), or that off-field equipment might get damaged (scoring, sound, etc.). I believe that one team got the warning at Detroit, though I don't think they got a penalty.
__________________
Pete Kieselbach
#4

  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 08:11
Racer26 Racer26 is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Beaverton, ON
Posts: 2,229
Racer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

I was fairly certain that S01 didn't have any provisions for giving penalties in it.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 08:35
Jeff Rodriguez Jeff Rodriguez is offline
Too young to be an 'old guy'
FRC #0155 (Technonuts)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Newington, CT
Posts: 1,943
Jeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Jeff Rodriguez Send a message via Yahoo to Jeff Rodriguez
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1075guy View Post
I was fairly certain that S01 didn't have any provisions for giving penalties in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by <S01>
If at any time a ROBOT'S operation or design is deemed unsafe, it will receive a PENALTY and be disabled for the remainder of the MATCH. If the safety violation is due to the ROBOT design, the Head Referee has the option to not allow the ROBOT back onto the TRACK until the design has been corrected. An example of unsafe operation would be uncontrolled motion that cannot be stopped by the drivers.
I think it would be an S01, especially since they warned you first a 'couple of times'. From the rule it should have even been a disablement. It would be pretty dangerous having that ball go over the player station and onto tho drivers and coaches. It can do some damage falling from 7 feet up.
__________________
173, student: 1999-2002
173, mentor: 2005-2010
155, teacher: 2011-
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 08:39
Racer26 Racer26 is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Beaverton, ON
Posts: 2,229
Racer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

1114 Launched the ball directly AT the judges area at Waterloo this weekend, and didn't get any penalties.

Also, the way that <S01> is worded they should have disabled you. Did they?
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 09:27
petek's Avatar
petek petek is offline
What would Dave do?
AKA: Peter Kieselbach
FRC #3654 (Tech Tigers)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Middletown, CT
Posts: 923
petek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to petek
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1075guy View Post
1114 Launched the ball directly AT the judges area at Waterloo this weekend, and didn't get any penalties.
Seeing the awards 1114 received, I guess Judges must be fair game.
__________________
Pete Kieselbach
#4

  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 09:35
Diriye Diriye is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 45
Diriye has much to be proud ofDiriye has much to be proud ofDiriye has much to be proud ofDiriye has much to be proud ofDiriye has much to be proud ofDiriye has much to be proud ofDiriye has much to be proud ofDiriye has much to be proud of
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1075guy View Post
1114 Launched the ball directly AT the judges area at Waterloo this weekend, and didn't get any penalties.

Also, the way that <S01> is worded they should have disabled you. Did they?
If you mean the area where the judges were sitting, it took a bounce then went their direction. Anyways, the judges were only sitting there for a couple of minutes; they weren't there for the entire time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by <S01>
An example of unsafe operation would be uncontrolled motion that cannot be stopped by the drivers.
If any drivers had full control over their robot, they were 1114's drivers.
__________________
"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack in will."
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 10:37
MasonMM's Avatar
MasonMM MasonMM is offline
Registered User
AKA: Mason Markee
FRC #0118 (Robonauts)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 160
MasonMM has a reputation beyond reputeMasonMM has a reputation beyond reputeMasonMM has a reputation beyond reputeMasonMM has a reputation beyond reputeMasonMM has a reputation beyond reputeMasonMM has a reputation beyond reputeMasonMM has a reputation beyond reputeMasonMM has a reputation beyond reputeMasonMM has a reputation beyond reputeMasonMM has a reputation beyond reputeMasonMM has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1075guy View Post
Also, the way that <S01> is worded they should have disabled you. Did they?
We were not disabled for bouncing the ball out of bounds, only penalized. It was unfortunate that while we were continuing to tweak our robot to fit within this criteria that was not available prior to the regional we still had points taken away. And by no means do we want to operate unsafely; we just want a consistent and available interpretation of the rules for tournaments all across the country.
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 12:04
Rick TYler Rick TYler is offline
A VEX GUy WIth A STicky SHift KEy
VRC #0010 (Exothermic Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Redmond, Washington
Posts: 2,000
Rick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond reputeRick TYler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasonMM View Post
It was unfortunate that while we were continuing to tweak our robot to fit within this criteria that was not available prior to the regional we still had points taken away. And by no means do we want to operate unsafely; we just want a consistent and available interpretation of the rules for tournaments all across the country.
If regularly throwing (or even bouncing) trackballs completely out of the arena isn't a clear violation of <S1>, I don't know what is. Did you want the referees to keep ignoring your unsafe behavior while you "tweaked" your robot? It sounds to me like they were generous with you.

As a scorekeeper at Seattle (where the table was maybe three feet from the edge of the arena) and trainee scorekeeper at Portland, I am EXTREMELY grateful for the teams and referees that think my safety is important. While I appreciate that your intent was to modify your robot to become safer, while it was still throwing balls out of the arena the referees should have penalized and/or disabled your robot. Good intentions are necessary but not sufficient for safety.
__________________
Exothermic Robotics Club, Venturing Crew 2036
VRC 10A, 10B, 10D, 10Q, 10V, 10X, 10Z, and 575

Last edited by Rick TYler : 24-03-2008 at 13:17.
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 12:56
Nawaid Ladak's Avatar
Nawaid Ladak Nawaid Ladak is offline
The Banana People Are Awsome!
AKA: Nawaid Ladak
FRC #0945 (Team Banana)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Washington D.C.
Posts: 1,021
Nawaid Ladak has a brilliant futureNawaid Ladak has a brilliant futureNawaid Ladak has a brilliant futureNawaid Ladak has a brilliant futureNawaid Ladak has a brilliant futureNawaid Ladak has a brilliant futureNawaid Ladak has a brilliant futureNawaid Ladak has a brilliant futureNawaid Ladak has a brilliant futureNawaid Ladak has a brilliant futureNawaid Ladak has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to Nawaid Ladak Send a message via MSN to Nawaid Ladak Send a message via Yahoo to Nawaid Ladak
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1075guy View Post
1114 Launched the ball directly AT the judges area at Waterloo this weekend, and didn't get any penalties.

Also, the way that <S01> is worded they should have disabled you. Did they?
that was really funny after the comment paul made while announcing that

I also think were going to see more of these if teams are going to keep on trying the RUSHshot. (thats my name for the last second hurdle by team 27 at detroit...)

i also saw one of the shooters in one of the webcasts launch the ball almost over the drivers station for the oposing alliance, one of the people behind the lexan knocked back onto the field.
__________________
"When you make a mistake, admit it, correct it, and learn from it - immediately."-Stephen Covey
I can still learn from this quote, how about you?

Nawaid Ladak
2003-2006 FRC # 1402: Freedom Force. Scouting
2007 FRC # 1694: RoboWarriors. Mentor
2008-Present FRC # 945: Team Banana. Mentor

Contact me
E-mail: LadakN (at) GMail (dot) com

Twitter / Facebook / Youtube
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 13:00
Richard Wallace's Avatar
Richard Wallace Richard Wallace is offline
I live for the details.
FRC #3620 (Average Joes)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Southwestern Michigan
Posts: 3,675
Richard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

As a volunteer I appreciate referees' erring on the side of caution, by taking steps to discourage gameplay that might result in someone (or some critical equipment) being hit by a flying trackball. I do agree those steps should be the same at all events.

As a mentor whose team built a catapult robot this year, I appreciated referees at both of our events who clarified the way they would be calling this during Thursday practice rounds. We were warned about potential <S1> penalties the first time that our poor aim sent a trackball over the side in St. Louis. Two weeks later during Thursday practice at Boilermaker, we were advised that a trackball clearing the overpass between the uprights, but landing out of bounds, would not be scored as a hurdle. This advice was confirmed by an official Q&A response a few days later, but the timely warning we got kept us from repeating the mistake on Friday or Saturday.

Looking at it from either perspective, the referees I've seen have made the right call when balls left the track.
__________________
Richard Wallace

Mentor since 2011 for FRC 3620 Average Joes (St. Joseph, Michigan)
Mentor 2002-10 for FRC 931 Perpetual Chaos (St. Louis, Missouri)
since 2003

I believe in intuition and inspiration. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research.
(Cosmic Religion : With Other Opinions and Aphorisms (1931) by Albert Einstein, p. 97)

Last edited by Richard Wallace : 24-03-2008 at 13:33.
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 13:33
Dan Richardson's Avatar
Dan Richardson Dan Richardson is offline
iR3 Creative
AKA: Dan Richardson
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale FL
Posts: 1,121
Dan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond reputeDan Richardson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

LoL while announcing on Friday at Florida Team 103 launched a ball out of bounds and hit me in the head then almost knocked over a few thousand dollars worth of production equipment. No penalty was given it was completely accidental and really kind of an awkward bounce. Its really the only time I can remember it FLYING out of bounds, One almost did hit some drivers but it stayed in.

Let the boys play is my motto, no blood no foul, they had to assume balls would be ejected from the field, otherwise they wouldn't have put in the ball replacement rules. If a team does it consistently sure, warning/penalty based on S01 ( Tho I'm not sure how its supposed to be a 10 pt penalty, I thought it was just a yellow card ) but 1 or 2 times.. ehh give me a break lol.
__________________
CO-Founder of Robot in 3 Days and the Robot in 3 Day Challenge.


  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 13:40
Brandon Holley's Avatar
Brandon Holley Brandon Holley is offline
Chase perfection. Catch excellence.
AKA: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
FRC #0125 (NU-TRONs, Team #11 Alumni (GO MORT))
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,593
Brandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Brandon Holley
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

Repeated violations of sending the ball out of bounds is a no no...

But lets face the facts, the ball is going to end up out of the playing field at some point in time. If your around the field area just keep an eye on whats going on and if a ball comes sailing your way (or towards another person for that matter) get out of the way or let the person know the are about to be stuck with a 10 pound projectile.

Balls launched from our catapult go quite high into the air : http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hlight=mad+ups
However we were still able to keep the ball in bounds on every shot. While I dont konw if a 10 point penalty is per the rule book, it seems they gave you a fair shot to dial it down.
__________________
MORT (Team 11) '01-'05 :
-2005 New Jersey Regional Chairman's Award Winners
-2013 MORT Hall of Fame Inductee

NUTRONs (Team 125) '05-???
2007 Boston Regional Winners
2008 & 2009 Boston Regional Driving Tomorrow's Technology Award
2010 Boston Regional Creativity Award
2011 Bayou Regional Finalists, Innovation in Control Award, Boston Regional Finalists, Industrial Design Award
2012 New York City Regional Winners, Boston Regional Finalists, IRI Mentor of the Year
2013 Orlando Regional Finalists, Industrial Design Award, Boston Regional Winners, Pine Tree Regional Finalists
2014 Rhode Island District Winners, Excellence in Engineering Award, Northeastern University District Winners, Industrial Design Award, Pine Tree District Chairman's Award, Pine Tree District Winners
2015 South Florida Regional Chairman's Award, NU District Winners, NEDCMP Industrial Design Award, Hopper Division Finalists, Hopper/Newton Gracious Professionalism Award
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-03-2008, 13:41
Qbranch Qbranch is offline
wow college goes fast.
AKA: Alex
FRC #1024 (Kil-A-Bytes)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 1,174
Qbranch has a reputation beyond reputeQbranch has a reputation beyond reputeQbranch has a reputation beyond reputeQbranch has a reputation beyond reputeQbranch has a reputation beyond reputeQbranch has a reputation beyond reputeQbranch has a reputation beyond reputeQbranch has a reputation beyond reputeQbranch has a reputation beyond reputeQbranch has a reputation beyond reputeQbranch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Ball Bouncing Out of Bounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1075guy View Post
1114 Launched the ball directly AT the judges area at Waterloo this weekend, and didn't get any penalties.
We closelined the head ref and three other refs when our gripper was holding the ball and a robot ran into ours, causing us to hold the ball outside the field and hit the had ref in the face with the trackball. When I was recovering from the hit and getting us going around the track again, I swung left, which whapped three other refs (including Stu! ) in the face.

Moral of the story? Refs don't make good walls.

If anyone wants to find it, it was at a match at BMR, although I have no idea which match it was. I feel that there shouldn't be any penalty for stuff like this since if FIRST was really concerned about extra-field-ular interactions they would have put solid lexan clad high walls all the way down the field, or put tape lines around the field over which no one can cross when a match is in play.

-q
__________________
Electrical Engineer Illini
1024 | Programmer '06, '07, '08 | Driver '08

Last edited by Qbranch : 24-03-2008 at 13:45.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Balls bouncing out of goal Bob Steele Regional Competitions 31 08-03-2006 13:00
Placing Tetras out of bounds Someone Rules/Strategy 6 10-01-2005 00:08
Knocking out Doubler Ball mightywombat Rules/Strategy 47 23-02-2004 15:18
10 pt. ball into/out of play Lil' Lavery Rules/Strategy 23 28-01-2004 14:17
Out of bounds... -- copy of posting in General archiver 2000 0 24-06-2002 00:11


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:30.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi