2009 Control System Possibility?

[Pavan Dave]

I have been apart of FIRST for 3 years and I have seen the IFI guys jump over hurdles and through hoops of fire to help teams out so it is a shame that FIRST split, especially in the manner that IFI found out.... In other news, my source(s) tell me that something above was in the works.

I HOPE that whatever FIRST changes to, doesn't change the price of FIRST as many teams are already barely cutting the entry costs and a decent robot. The thing I like about IFI is $500 for the RC, $500 for OI and a few hundred for accessories will run smoothly. If we have another system, I hope it is around the same or cheaper because if it goes up even by $200-300 then we will see the peak of growth in FIRST sooner. At that, if the accessories like motor controllers and relays are more expensive we (the teams and the FIRST community) are at a bigger loss.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by LightWaves1636

I've been told it goes back to when the VEX kits were first released at Radioshack and IFI was having a lot of problems because many of the kits were defective and IFI began to lose money and had to break ties with Radioshack. Then it goes into even more detail but it's more trouble to explain what had happened between FIRST and IFI.

I think your information is suspect at best.

If you don't have hard facts, it's best to avoid speculation that may or may not be unfounded.

[EricVicenti]

So does anyone know when FIRST will announce and give us access to the new system? Will we have to wait till kickoff?

[Andy L]

Originally Posted by EricVicenti

So does anyone know when FIRST will announce and give us access to the new system? Will we have to wait till kickoff?

I'm hoping they announce something before kickoff, I'd like to know what to expect.

[Pat Fairbank]

Originally Posted by Andy L

I'm hoping they announce something before kickoff, I'd like to know what to expect.

Last time there was a significant platform change, when the processor inside the RC was switched from a BASIC Stamp to a PIC for the 2004 season, teams were sent a "Mini-RC" in the fall so that they could learn the language and the structure of the default code. I would expect something similar for future platform changes.

[Golto]

I'm curious to see what's sent to us!

(Though I wouldn't complain if they sent us an AVR)

[,4lex S.]

With any luck IFI will stay on board with their KitBot and Traction wheel products, it would be a shame to lose such reliable mechanical products out of what seems to be going on with the control system. I would hate to be stuck with my team having to weld the frame again next year...

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

As it seems to be open season on speculation, let me add what my secret agents are telling me: National Instruments (of LabView fame) has a platform called CompactRIO, which is used for industrial controls.

Well heck, why don't we slap an Allen-Bradley PLC on each robot and call it a day?

From NI's website:
C Series I/O Modules

A variety of I/O types are available including voltage, current, thermocouple, RTD, accelerometer, and strain gauge inputs; up to ±60 V simultaneous-sampling analog I/O; 12, 24, and 48 V industrial digital I/O; 5 V/TTL digital I/O; counter/timers; pulse generation; and high voltage/current relays. Because the modules contain built-in signal conditioning for extended voltage ranges or industrial signal types, you can usually connect wires directly from the C Series modules to your sensors and actuators.

*****

I'd LOVE the ability to more easily interface industry standard sensors (inductive proxes, throughbeam and reflective optical sensors, etc.) to the new control system.

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

I could get excited over this
http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/202711

Encoder input and current sensor built in. We could start doing some great things for the community as far as software infrastructure goes.

edit: Looks like this is for low current applications only (8A continuous, 12A peak). Either way, I hope some kind of 'out of the box' feedback solution is integrated into our motor drivers next year. I have helped teams get software solutions running at regionals for the past few events, and the value of something like this would be immense.

$419 for this module - functionality - even low current functionality - comes at a price!

[Pat Fairbank]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

Well heck, why don't we slap an Allen-Bradley PLC on each robot and call it a day?

I shudder to think about the possibility of having to program robots using ladder logic.

FIRST, whatever you do, please let us use a real programming language!

[SuperBK]

While it will be refreshing to program something new, I will miss IFI. Also I belive that exposing students to Microchip products is beneficial for later in their career.
Brian

[galewind]

Of all things, FIRST needs to make sure that whatever system they go with, that they have support that is at least as good as or better than IFI's. Even though they're a small operation, and there have been failures in some hardware from time to time (statistics states that it's bound to happen with any type of hardware, though), they have ALWAYS been there to support teams and events. From having loaner hardware to excellent phone support to being there to fix the fields, IFI has always gone the extra mile to make sure that things run smoothly, and to help teams feel that they're valuable.

It's almost as though IFI is just a different style of FIRST team.

If FIRST chooses a different controller system, the only thing I can pray for is that the support they give is better than that of IFI, and that's going to be darn hard to beat.

[dcbrown]

New FTC controller info from FIRST announcement/blog:

. LEGO NXT controller w/55mhz ARM processor for user code
. HiTechnic I2C sMUX sensor multiplexor for expanding number of sensors.
. NXTG, LabVIEW, RobotC programming tools
. 2-way bluetooth communication

There are I2C prototype cards for developing your own sensors, but latency looks like it might be an issue for some sensors that need fine timing control - maybe not - but that is my first impression. The prototype card uses a pre-programmed PIC16LF819.

BTW, the hardware devo kit for CompactRIO which includes processor module and a couple io modules is $5000. Just the real-time controller module is $1500 list.

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by galewind

Of all things, FIRST needs to make sure that whatever system they go with, that they have support that is at least as good as or better than IFI's. Even though they're a small operation, and there have been failures in some hardware from time to time (statistics states that it's bound to happen with any type of hardware, though), they have ALWAYS been there to support teams and events. From having loaner hardware to excellent phone support to being there to fix the fields, IFI has always gone the extra mile to make sure that things run smoothly, and to help teams feel that they're valuable.

It's almost as though IFI is just a different style of FIRST team.

If FIRST chooses a different controller system, the only thing I can pray for is that the support they give is better than that of IFI, and that's going to be darn hard to beat.

Since this is a Rumor thread I'll throw a little wrench into it

I heard from a little birdy that FIRST isn't looking for another system that they themselves are doing the work....

I won't say who the little birdy is but I enjoyed a laugh w/ them after they told me and a couple of others about this.

On a serious note, IFI truly is the most prepared, most helpful, most aware and most friendly let alone understanding company there is. I try and work side by side with one guy and particular (since we make a good team) and though his (and their) job is hard they def. come out on top when it comes to making sure a team's IFI Equip, is set up correctly and that the team can play match after match w/o fail. Their job is hard and I applaud them for doing what they do 24/7 year round for the teams. It'll be a shame to see them go

[lingomaniac88]

Well, I'm hoping that not too many things change. In many aspects.

As 1554's programmer, I don't want to have too many delays in writing or transmitting code. It's hard enough to make the six-week deadline for us at the pace we worked at this year and last year. (I bet everyone else reading this is thinking that, too.)

However, I don't think learning the syntax will be a problem. Programming languages are all very similar, anyway.

But I think that it would be a bit annoying if we all had to get accustomed to a completely new way of transmitting code. Honestly, I doubt there will be such vast differences in the two systems, but then again... Murphy's Law. Or some variation of it.

[Katie_UPS]

When will the 2009 kick-off be
(date)