OSHA, Safety and event volumes

[Laura_587]

I really do agree that it is often a bit too loud, and thanks for the suggestions on how to ask the crew to turn the music down. It's really annoying when you're on the field, and yelling at the top of your lungs, and someone still can't hear you.

[Chrisms]

I honestly can't say i've been to an event where the music was too loud... I was at NJ and Chesapeake this year. both events from the stands you could hear everyone around you fine, and hold conversations just fine. The only time it was a bit difficult was when we sat in the bottom rows one day at Chesapeake, which is to be expected, that whole inverse square law. And even then it wasn't bad at all.

the only event i've been at that was WAY too loud was NYC last year. It was far too loud, even at the top of the stands. that was excessive.

you have to remember at that music has to be loud for people sitting in the top rows to hear. so if it's too loud for you guys, I suggest sitting away form the field another 20 feet, and the sound will drop considerably.


edit: also, you claim volume levels of 120dB. Could you give us some more information, where did you measure this, at the field, at the top of the stand,s etc etc. Did you measure it at all, was it a guess, was it told to you by the sound crew.
120dB is about he noise a plain generates as it's taking off, thats very loud.

[Matt H.]

Something which has not yet been mentioned is effects of music volume on the drive team etc. If you believe the music is loud in stands try standing in team queuing less than 10ft from the speakers. During Friday and Saturday I wear ear plug with 36db noise reduction (remember this means 36 orders of magnitude less) and still found the sound to be painfully loud. My team mates and I were shocked to find our pant legs oscillating several inches with the music due to the massive pressure changes.
For everyone who says talk to the AV people--they often will not listen or have unreasonable expectations of peoples hearing (or lack thereof). Unlike many teenagers I greatly value my hearing--this shouldn't mean that I can not drive the robot.

[mathking]

I have been to a couple of FIRST regional competitions where I thought the volume was too loud. My phone has a cool decibel meter in it, and (I used to DJ for extra cash so I am geeky about this) I routinely check the sound level whenever there is loud music. At Buckeye I never saw a reading above 80 Db. And I didn't have to strain to talk to anyone where our team was sitting or in the pits. Though I would still like to thank the Tiger Techs of 963 for the ear plugs they were handing out. At Buckeye, the position of speakers down for matches was such that the really loud sound was as you walked in (again, thanks to 963), but where the alliances waited for matches was below and between speaker sets, so the noise level was not that bad, meaning nothing close to the red zone on my meter.

I do think the sound is likely to vary significantly from regional venue to regional venue. Different systems and different accoustical properties. As I said, I have been to regional competitions as an observer at which the music was loud enough to do the old DJ trick of twisting up a bit of napkin for each ear. But the original post is dead on that, given FIRST's emphasis on safety, it is something that each regional should examine to make sure the noise level is not dangerously loud.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by OScubed

hmmm. Checking internet to see if there's a radio shack w/in walking distance.... Seriously thanks for the suggestions - especially regarding whom to approach. I spoke with people with white "Crew" shirts on, a person in the pit area with I believe another white shirt, and the sound crew themselves. I will seek out the safety or event managers if the situation repeats itself today

Look for the people wearing the green polo shirts. I talked to your team as a Safety Advisor multiple times throughout the weekend (congratulations on the award btw, you guys did a fantastic job and had a great safety program) and never heard one complaint/comment about sound brought up amongst the discussions among ourselves as to what was being complained about as far as safety was concerned.

But I believe the first people you could come to find would be the Safety Advisors in the green polo shirts. Then we can relay that info to whoever controls the A/V aspects of the competition.

As a side note, 1511 does have a rather large team... and was very loud in the stands themselves, so that does add to the ambient noise in the whole venue.
Just something else to consider before just blaming the sound folks, or the announcers. The teams bring their excitement to the events, and that means a loud event.

Fact is this isn't a science fair, nor a library, and it should have some energy (and sound level) to it.

Not to say that some of it can't be controlled, but it's not always the levels of the microphones, or the speakers that make an event "loud" at a potentially unsafe level.

Do we want to tell teams like 1511, 365, 341, or other particularly spirited (and large) teams to be quiet in the stands? Of course not.
Can we do something about the audio levels of the speakers, and the microphones if they are too loud? Yes.

[IndySam]

The first time I walked onto the field for a match in Atlanta I was surprised how quiet it was. Because the speakers are very directional and pointed at the crowd so four fields can play at once it's great on the field. You could talk with alliance members without raising your voice at all.


And Richard, I have always found the sound at St. Louis to be fine.

[OScubed]

Originally Posted by JYang

The noise level probably varies from regional to regional. If the noise level that you are describing it as is really how loud it was at your regional, then you should talk to the regional director or assistant. At the Silicon Valley Regional for the past two years, the sound is not that bad. Many elderly people have come and say that they enjoy the event and would like to come back (even many with sensitive ears).

I'd like to say that, after discussing the issue with the regional director at Philly (who was very responsive) and the sound person I believe we came to an understanding on this. The music the second day was not relentlessly loud, and people could actually hear each other in the stands when talking. The announcing was not painful as it was the day before. Over the course of the day and into the finals the music and announcing built in volume, which increased the excitement level and made for a great show. It never got as painfully loud as the day before, but was plenty loud to get everyone pumped.

As a side effect of the reduced volume the team spirit levels were IMHO much higher the second day (compared to FLR and to the first day) - lots of cross the event cheering (which would not have been heard with the volume as loud as it was the first day), and several instances of the "WAVE" which you could not have heard being organized the day before. And that was before the Semi's started!

I see no problem with either cranking up the occasional tune so the kids (er me too - I have a low dance threshhold) can dance (Cotton Eye Jo or YMCA or Sandstorm or whatever), or to punctuate a pause in the action during a timeout or something, or building to a crescendo into the finals - it was the all-day loud that we got the first day that I was concerned about - going back to the articles - the DURATION of the sound as well as the VOLUME.

I don't think during the actual final anyone could hear the music anyway 114-116 with no penalties, the win literally determined by a ball herded over the line in the final moments of the game. We weren't IN the finals and I was screaming at the top of my voice (with my earplugs in of course ). What a great show. And yes the team is loud - but (unless someone was screaming directly into my ear) never as painfully loud as the announcing was on top of the music the day before.

In any case I'd like to thank the FIRST organizers at Philly for listening to my concerns. I hope that other regional directors will take the time to check the volume in the stands from time to time to be sure we're not doing permanent hearing damage to our competitors, families, mentors and volunteers, and to consider duration as well as volume in setting levels

And I'd like to thank ALL the teams that brought free earplugs to the events and pits - great job.

And for the folks that were talking dB's I've been educated a bit more about this since by several ACTUAL sound engineers (which I didn't claim to be one of ). The sound system in Philly doesn't go much more than 110dB according to the sound engineer there (And I have no reason to disbelieve him). Since it was occasionally distorting I'd imagine it was close to if not at that volume to some extent during day one. I was applying the rules in the OSHA standard to whether it's "too loud" - if you are standing 3 feet from someone and have to raise your voice to be heard it's over 100dB and that should not be maintained for more than a couple hours to avoid hearing loss. The 140dB was probably just my old fart brain saying "man that's loud ". It was not as loud as some of the techno concerts I've been to (Where the entire venue actually vibrated with the bass). Believe me at those concerts I locate FAR from the speakers and wear earplugs. But who can resist a good techno concert eh?

[OScubed]

Originally Posted by mathking

My phone has a cool decibel meter in it, and (I used to DJ for extra cash so I am geeky about this) I routinely check the sound level whenever there is loud music.

Is the dB meter a piece of software, or built into the phone? If software is it Windows Mobile? Know where I could get it? (Inner geek breaks out...)

[KathieK]

We know of a case where two people were interested in learning more about FIRST, came to an event, thought it was way too loud, and left soon after. We lost two potential mentors and a potential team because the music was too loud.

I escort VIPs at some of the Regionals. I routinely lose my voice because I have to yell over the music to explain the game to them. I'm concerned about straining my vocal chords and what kind of longterm damage I am doing to them.

I come home with ears ringing.

I love the music and announcing, but does it really have to be so loud to make an event exciting?

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Matt H.

I wear ear plug with 36db noise reduction (remember this means 36 orders of magnitude less)

Not exactly - 36 dB doesn't translate to 36 orders of magnitude (10^36). In sound, 3 dB is a doubling of sound levels, so it's 2^12 times louder (or quieter). Also note that SPL (Sound Pressure Level), measured in deciBels, weighted toward human ear response ("A" weighting, or dBA) is subjective, in that 1 dB is defined as the smallest change that a human can detect. Yes, it is measured objectively, but the delta SPL is subjective for 1 dB.

Nonetheless, I wear ear plugs at every FIRST event, even in the pits, with few exceptions - it seems to me like it is always too loud, and I like my hearing thank you.

Don

[OScubed]

Add Atlanta as just way to loud to cheer or talk in the stands.

[JesseK]

I found that Atlanta was ok when the right person was speaking. Some of the people who spoke had very boomy voices and that hurt. It made me glad I was "stuck" in the pits for most of the day, and when I wasn't in the pits I was in queue. Thankfully the queueing was mostly behind the speakers on Galileo.

On the field I was too distracted to notice it.

[mathking]

Originally Posted by OScubed

Is the dB meter a piece of software, or built into the phone? If software is it Windows Mobile? Know where I could get it? (Inner geek breaks out...)

It is actually a built in bit of hardware on my Sanyo.

[Joe Ross]

See this thread for some data on the sound levels that team 1311 took at the championship: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...093#post740093

[Kims Robot]

Ironically enough, the sound in JUST our division was crazy loud on Thursday & Friday at Champs. I mentioned something to one of the Refs saturday morning, and she was able to get them to turn it down some, so that it wasnt deafening anymore. One of our mentors walked over to the other divisions and said all of them sounded fine, ours was just too loud (especially the buzzer & noises)

I dont think this is a problem at every regional... FLR was fine, Philly was horrible... we asked several people to turn it down on Friday (opening ceremonies), but we were told that they wouldnt do anything until after opening ceremonies were over. We all sat there with fingers in our ears until a nice volunteer finally brought us earplugs.

And Elgin, the reason our safety kids prolly didnt say anything at Philly is because most of them werent in the stands for very much of it! And to be honest, they probably didnt think the safety inspectors could do anything about it if the field manager couldnt.