2008 Boston Regional

[raceteen48]

I thought Boston was an awesome regional, a lot of younger teams there than Manchester, I know we sure did a lot better, we got it all figured out in time for Boston i felt, and had a good time. thanks to 69 for picking us in the Selections, and thanks to 2084 for being a great alliance partner, i think we had a great alliance out there.

I do however have a question about certain penalties that I am confused about.
in one of our QF matches 69 got called for "Impeding a Hurdle" on team 125, which i was kind of confused about, because they are a launcher robot, and therefore i asked a referee later what the definition of "Hurdling" is, and he said "Hurdling is when the ball is just off the floor, now that seemed wrong to me, and when i got home i saw this on the First forums.

"The act of completing a HURDLE. To be considered in the process of HURDLING, the ROBOT must:

* be in its own HOME STRETCH, and
* be in POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL, and
* be moving toward the OVERPASS and/or elevating the TRACKBALL so that the top of the TRACKBALL is higher than the LANE DIVIDER."

now to me, that says that the robot has to have the ball ABOVE the lane divider, so therefore, a shooter robot should hypothetically never get a penalty called against someone else for impeding them in hurdling.

we also had one point in a match where we were hurdling, and a robot hit us, they never got called, we asked Benge and he said "it was incidental Contact" now i never saw anywhere in the rules where it specified whether it was incidental or not made a difference, especially when we were the only robot on that side and they could have gone left or right of us.

also, how does the "Contact outside the bumper zone" work? In SF2 Match 2, in like the last 5 seconds of the match, we were trying to take the Red ball down from the overpass, and 1153's arm got caught in our robot, actually holding onto our battery cable. we were then unable to knock the ball off, and as i understood it, if you have an attachment outside the starting size limitations, and it hits/interferes with another robot especially being INSIDE their robot, you should get a ten point penalty, and yet they didn't, Benge even had to step OVER their arm to leave the circle of judges, and then i even pointed it out to a ref, who responded with "We already gave them a penalty for something" then they posted the score, and he said "still want that penalty" and then they took the score down, and changed it, and they actually won, so we argued with Benge and he just said "we call it as we see it guys" and i walked over to the ref i had talked to earlier and said "ya, i want it called now" and he just said that he talked to Benge and Benge made up his mind but he would talk to him again. i do not know if he did or not, i was really upset about this, since they never gave us a reason other than "they already called them for a penalty (which was impeding a hurdle btw). since when can a team only get called one penalty against them? even if wouldn't effect the match outcome? I feel that we really missed out on a third match that should have been played, and might have changed the outcome of the whole regional.

[AmoryG]

Well, if they decided not to penalize them because they were already penalized then I'm amazed. I was the controller of my team's robot and in my team's first match, I accidently went back and forth over the line to knock the ball off from underneath. We got like 2-3 penalties for that.

Also, there was one penalty I thought was very unfair. At the last lap aparently as I was passing over the line, a robot infront of me was blocking the way and I slowed down, but bounced back a very tiny bit over the line. That counted as a penalty. There were also some teams complaining about robots that rammed into their robots at high speeds, but didn't get any penalties called on them. I guess judges can make mistakes, but with 10? out there their calls should be pretty accurate.

[B_Dubbs]

Originally Posted by raceteen48

also, how does the "Contact outside the bumper zone" work? In SF2 Match 2, in like the last 5 seconds of the match, we were trying to take the Red ball down from the overpass, and 1153's arm got caught in our robot, actually holding onto our battery cable. we were then unable to knock the ball off, and as i understood it, if you have an attachment outside the starting size limitations, and it hits/interferes with another robot especially being INSIDE their robot, you should get a ten point penalty, and yet they didn't, Benge even had to step OVER their arm to leave the circle of judges, and then i even pointed it out to a ref, who responded with "We already gave them a penalty for something" then they posted the score, and he said "still want that penalty" and then they took the score down, and changed it, and they actually won, so we argued with Benge and he just said "we call it as we see it guys" and i walked over to the ref i had talked to earlier and said "ya, i want it called now" and he just said that he talked to Benge and Benge made up his mind but he would talk to him again. i do not know if he did or not, i was really upset about this, since they never gave us a reason other than "they already called them for a penalty (which was impeding a hurdle btw). since when can a team only get called one penalty against them? even if wouldn't effect the match outcome? I feel that we really missed out on a third match that should have been played, and might have changed the outcome of the whole regional.

The reason it did not cause a penalty was because it was unintentional. If you watch the match you'll see that at the end after we place the robot and stayed still in front of the ball. Then when your robot drove at the ball to knock it off, it came in at an angle forcing our arm's double hinge to activate and fold up. When you pushed forward again, nothing kept the arm in the folding position and it fell on your robot. Unfortunately it got tangled up in your robot. If you were wondering they took the score down because they didn't count the red ball on the overpass at the end.

[raceteen48]

while i understand that we might have hit you, I thought the rule stated that if your attachments are outside the bumper zone, then you are responsible for all contact they make with another robot, and even then, shouldn't the arms then fall under <R07> no mechanism shall pose an obvious risk of entanglement with another robot? and i thought that we had been penalized in an earlier match for hitting outside the bumper zone when we were sitting still, but i might be blurring Manchester and Boston here, so i might be wrong.

sorry, I am not trying to be a pain here, just trying to understand the rules and their limitations

[B_Dubbs]

Originally Posted by raceteen48

while i understand that we might have hit you, I thought the rule stated that if your attachments are outside the bumper zone, then you are responsible for all contact they make with another robot, and i thought that we had been penalized in an earlier match for hitting outside the bumper zone when we were sitting still, but i might be blurring Manchester and Boston here, so i might be wrong.

I'm not sure, I just remember Benge's final ruling being that it was an unintentional hit/entanglement so no penalty was called. Either way both semifinal matches were extraordinary and well played by both alliances. As for R04, I believe that because the arms fold up in contact with the overpass or another robot (or anything so long as it isn't a head on collision) that the inspectors and judges felt that they would not impose an obvious risk. Then again, its all in one's interpretation of the word obvious...

[raceteen48]

oh, ok, and ya, they were both great matches, and I never heard Benge's ruling, all he told us was that he called it as they saw it, i never heard that he ruled it as unintentional, and yea, i think the problem with a lot of these rules is how people take them, I mean, look at 190, i am glad we were in a situation where we didn't 'waste' six weeks on something that breaks a rule every time it works if i understand other discussions in this forum. (not that they wasted it, but kind of stinks to be in that predicament)

[Rosiebotboss]

Boston ROCKS!

Marc Hodosh, Regional Planning Committee Chair and RD Steve Cremer and their team deserve a HUGE pat on the back for bringing over 7200 people, many of whom were NOT FIRST connected to see a Regional and at least be exposed to the magic of FIRST.

The Boston Regional Mentor program is one of those programs that comes along the stands above the noise and really makes a difference. This program needs to be emulated throughout FIRST at all levels.

Ask an Engineer--same thing. The engineering students from Northeastern University who make up that group are outstanding. They are the future and I gotta put on my shades! They are and will be making a difference in the lives of many many people in the future.

And last but by no means least, to the Judges, referees, the field reset, cuers, pit admin, volunteers and elevator operators.....YOU are the ones that made Boston so memorable for all of us on Rosie.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by raceteen48

I do however have a question about certain penalties that I am confused about.
in one of our QF matches 69 got called for "Impeding a Hurdle" on team 125, which i was kind of confused about, because they are a launcher robot, and therefore i asked a referee later what the definition of "Hurdling" is, and he said "Hurdling is when the ball is just off the floor, now that seemed wrong to me, and when i got home i saw this on the First forums.

"The act of completing a HURDLE. To be considered in the process of HURDLING, the ROBOT must:

* be in its own HOME STRETCH, and
* be in POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL, and
* be moving toward the OVERPASS and/or elevating the TRACKBALL so that the top of the TRACKBALL is higher than the LANE DIVIDER."

now to me, that says that the robot has to have the ball ABOVE the lane divider, so therefore, a shooter robot should hypothetically never get a penalty called against someone else for impeding them in hurdling.

Emphasis mine

This means that if they were in their home stretch with possession of a trackball and moving towards the overpass then they are considered to be hurdling.

[raceteen48]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

Emphasis mine

This means that if they were in their home stretch with possession of a trackball and moving towards the overpass then they are considered to be hurdling.

ok, I don't like that they put the and/or in there, they should have made it one of the others, because the way i read it, the "or" was meant for when they are stopped next to the rack putting it over and are above the rack.

but either way it doesn't make a difference, I saw the match, and 69 was coming around the turn, and 125 backed in front of them, and hyper hit them, they then were sitting still i believe, and if hyper were to have backed up they would have broken a plane and gotten a ten point penalty, they really had to keep pushing or else they would have gotten penalized for something else, idk, i guess it was just a bad call all around. it was in QF4 match 1 btw can be found here http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...p?matchid=9738

and Congrats rosie on the award

[commodoredl]

With shooter robots it is sometimes difficult to tell and sometimes annoying with calling the "Impeding Hurdling" penalty. I know that 578 ran into tons of problems with not getting that called on their opponents. In one match we were trying to launch and actually rammed from behind as our arm lowered to kick the ball. We only kicked it about 4 feet high because of that and no penalty was called, but we still won the match.
On a team like 125, their shooter device was located on the robot and "loaded" very slowly (I think), so a ref would have a hard time knowing if it was trying to hurdle. Some liberties would have to be taken to be fair to the shooter team, especially if they actually are in the act of hurdling without raising any sort of arm.

[alex1699]

i had fun and would to thank 2043 for picking team 1699 as an alliance. out of the last three year of building robots that was the first time for are team. thank you so much. i was so happy hearing we would like team one six nine nine after thinking about who that was. thank you so much. i stil have a smile on my face.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by raceteen48

ok, I don't like that they put the and/or in there, they should have made it one of the others, because the way i read it, the "or" was meant for when they are stopped next to the rack putting it over and are above the rack.

but either way it doesn't make a difference, I saw the match, and 69 was coming around the turn, and 125 backed in front of them, and hyper hit them, they then were sitting still i believe, and if hyper were to have backed up they would have broken a plane and gotten a ten point penalty, they really had to keep pushing or else they would have gotten penalized for something else, idk, i guess it was just a bad call all around. it was in QF4 match 1 btw can be found here http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...p?matchid=9738

and Congrats rosie on the award

Honestly I thought it was a legitimate call. We have a strong relationship with HYPER so right after the match we exchanged thoughts and were both fine with the way that call went. That alliance went on to win the QF anyway so no harm done, HYPER is alright in our books.

I talked to benge and he reiterated to me that a shooter has the same protection if we are moving toward the overpass. We were moving toward the overpass until HYPER hit us. Thats the way I see it.

Originally Posted by commodoredl

With shooter robots it is sometimes difficult to tell and sometimes annoying with calling the "Impeding Hurdling" penalty. I know that 578 ran into tons of problems with not getting that called on their opponents. In one match we were trying to launch and actually rammed from behind as our arm lowered to kick the ball. We only kicked it about 4 feet high because of that and no penalty was called, but we still won the match.
On a team like 125, their shooter device was located on the robot and "loaded" very slowly (I think), so a ref would have a hard time knowing if it was trying to hurdle. Some liberties would have to be taken to be fair to the shooter team, especially if they actually are in the act of hurdling without raising any sort of arm.

It takes around 4-5 seconds for us to load, but for 90% of the match we are loaded anyway. We were making sure we had a clear lane to the overpass as well as making sure we were straight on, however we were still attempting to move toward the overpass and were prohibited at doing that.


Congrats to everyone at Boston...it was an awesome event.

[raceteen48]

well, I realize that it didn't affect the outcome, but i know that in between matches our whole alliance was questioning it, I understand it now, but i would have liked a better explanation from the ref i asked rather than just "the ball has to be above the ground, that was the main problem I had

[Roger]

I want to extend a personal thank you to Rosie Robotics (team 839) for giving me a nice lunch in the garage on Friday! Roger.

[peace]

I would just like to say the Boston Regional was a wonderful experience. The venue is just great for this event and the volunteers did such a wonderful job.

The teams really came with their best stuff. Congratulations to all.

I am posting pictures of the event. I have been doing a few events for FIRST as part of my VISTA service and have learned a lot on how to photograph these events specifically, unfortunately do to the sheer amount of data collected and to provide these images in at least a minimally timely fashion, you will see the good and the bad together. I collected about 20gigs of image data total. Download time from cards to computers was about 7 hours. Anyone with high speed cpu's or motherboards to donate, we will graciously accept.

Image Gallery and Slideshow:

http://www.beaverbots.com/boston_frc/index.htm

More images later in the week.
peace