Great Lakes Regional 08

[MasterChief 573]

Originally Posted by Beth Sweet

Para el equipo de Chile, muchas gracias para la oportunidad a practicar hablando espanol. !Los miembros del equipo 2576 iba asi social con toda la gente al concurso, iban como los estudiantes estadounidenses! !!!Buena suerte a todo en el futuro, fue un placer para encontrar todos de ustedes!!!

Beth, Team 573 was working with the Chileans the entire weekend both in and outside the competition and we learned some much about the true meaning of this program through them. We could have used another translator though.

[JoeXIII'007]

Originally Posted by MasterChief 573

Beth, Team 573 was working with the Chileans the entire weekend both in and outside the competition and we learned some much about the true meaning of this program through them. We could have used another translator though.

I personally think that is what put the icing on the cake for this year's GLR. Typically we could call this regional international since it has previously attracted teams from Canada.

But Chile??? I couldn't be happier, that was so amazing, and their spirit was so natural, I just enjoyed it. Now GLR is truly international. wOOt!!!

To the Chile Team: Thanks for coming to the Great Lakes Regional. You guys were great!!!

[daf]

Hey fun regional everybody...That hybrid period in finals match 3 was sick...

I also have 2 questions I hope someone will be able to answer

1) Is there a website or anyone that has vids of the GLR matches?

2) I was also wondering if some teams could share their scouting method (not how they scout, but what they look for). The reason I'm asking is because my team (894) finished with a 6-2 record and on the ranks ended up at 12. Unfortunately though, we didn't get selected into the quarterfinals. I'm not complaining (I'll admit I was frustrated), but I just want to know why so we can improve it and make our robot better. (There were some teams that got selected and I was very surprised because I thought that there were a few other robots that had better qualities.) But like I said, just want to know what some of the teams looked for....Thanks and hope to see you all at nationals.

[Jim Meyer]

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman

66 came to us prior to alliance selection and asked us if we would accept their invitation. We informed them that would have to decline their offer, because we felt it was a better option to pick our own alliance.

So, they really weren't taking any risk...other than if we did something other than what we told them.

In my opinion, there is no way we would have been as dominate for the #1 alliance as 217 was, they were incredible.

In the past we have been very open with teams about whether we would accept an alliance with them or not. Our intent was to save them from having to publicly select us, only to have us decline. We're fine if they want to pick us openly anyway, as it has been pointed out, it's a good move strategically (we're also fine with them not publicly picking us too ). What I hadn't considered is that a team would ask us this question with no intention of actually pairing up with us, but merely looking to block us from being picked by another team. This practice I feel would be deceitfull and clearly not in the spirit of FIRST. I want to be clear here, the practice that would be deceitful would be telling us we are your top pick just to see if you can block us from being picked by another team.

Originally Posted by Chaos Marine

As you know 33,27,67 did decline us (as predicted) if any of these teams were to join together they would have been a POWER HOUSE! so with the help of so friends we did a little spying work and put the plan into action. I think most of you can figure the plan out from the way we pick those teams.

Back to what actually happened. A mentor from team 66 approached us about being their top pick. They had some concerns about 217's electrical problems (apparently rightfully so). If this was all a ruse to find out whether we would decline a pick or not (with no intention of picking us) I would be extremely disapointed, regardless of the eventual outcome.

[Mr.G]

Well after seven years we got lucky. It finally started to sink in yesterday.

Just want to say thanks to the HOT team. You guys and gals are an incredible team and have inspired us for years. Every year your robot is an absolute master piece. I would be worried about scratching it. Your team never gives up and really represents what First is about. Glad we got to go to the finals with you again.

503 hope we get to play with u more often then against. You guys just keep turning out great robots year after year. What really impresses me is how you guy work so well with other teams and results show.

There was an incredible amount of team work and good clean fun that made it all come together.

217, what an incredible robot. To bad luck wasn't there for your team, you guys are still assume. Coming into the finals I was hoping you'd get 3 in a row. I don't know if we could have pulled it out against you guy’s full force. We have drawn up and build some crazy designs over the years and most of them worked marginally, but I think your design takes the all time cake. What a great robot. I am sure it will be copied in some future year’s game and am sure it won't work for the copy cats. Paul I think you and your team could turn a box Scooby snacks into a functioning robot.

Everyone take a break and see you at Nationals. Peace.

[Ryan Dognaux]

There are around 325 pictures in our Picasa album from the trip, if you want to check them out follow the link: http://picasaweb.google.com/rdognaux/2008GLR

The pictures obviously have a Purdue FIRST Programs focus but there are other robots from the event in the album as well.

[PizzmasterP27]

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman

66 came to us prior to alliance selection and asked us if we would accept their invitation. We informed them that would have to decline their offer, because we felt it was a better option to pick our own alliance.

So, they really weren't taking any risk...other than if we did something other than what we told them.

In my opinion, there is no way we would have been as dominate for the #1 alliance as 217 was, they were incredible.

This is also true for Team RUSH. 66 did come over and ask us before, but we said we would not except. I agree that they weren't taking any risk but it was a pre-planned plan (if that makes any sense).

To 66: You are right though when you say a super-alliance may have been formed but with 217 and 910 along with yourselves you guys were just as good of an alliance as any of us. I think the action taken was not necessary, but it's part of the rules and you can play them to your advantage. So I respect your decision and it was a smart play on your guys part.

[web_master_dpep]

Hey im with team 66. man this is my first year in FRC but I was in FLL for 3 years. We missed 3 weeks of the build season because of layoffs. We were expecting to just go out there and compete. but we made it to finals . wowowow. Hey great job Chief Delphi u guys were #1 for the longest time. I hope to see you all in atlanta. If you want to talk to me im the mascot for 66 . Or you may see me in the pits. My name is dustin if any1 wishes to talk.

[WEHickok]

I was talking to Dave Verbrugge today and he shared some data with me that I want to share with you.

First, I would like to once again thank Dave for a great job as MC. It is always a pleasure to watch him work.

As an engineer, Dave likes to look at data from many different ways to see if there might be another result predicted. So Dave took the number of points that each team earned during the elimination matches and sorted them highest to lowest. Here is what he found:

Number of Points Alliance Match
126 7 Final 1-3
124 7 Qtr 3-2
114 1 Qtr 1-1
114 3 Qtr 4-1
110 3 Qtr 4-2
108 7 Final 1-1
104 1 Final 1-2
96 7 Semi 2-2
94 2 Qtr 3-1
94 7 Semi 2-1

That is just the top ten scores. As you can see, this shows that the best scores were saved to the end...very few semi-final scores here. It only got better. The way these team were performing, I would have liked to see some of them go at each other one on one.

Another thing that he pointed out to me...for the 7th alliance to be successful, they had to overcome the 2nd alliance, then the 3rd alliance, then the 1st alliance.

I would also like to thank the Chilean Hearts for attending GLR. I have been communicating with them for about three months. What a great team. If you have not yet gone to their website, I invite you to do so. You will see a photo of Woodie with his hair down...something not often seen. You will also see why they chose GLR for thier very first competition. They told me that they came here because they heard it was the very best. Well, they came to a great one. And thanks to all the teams and individuals that took the time to make them feel special. They are friends in my heart.

As a member of the Great Lakes Regional Planning Committee, it was great to stand on the floor during the Saturday award ceremony and see the enthusiam of the croud for each and every group there. Thanks for making this a great event.

[Chaos Marine]

Originally Posted by PizzmasterP27

To 66: You are right though when you say a super-alliance may have been formed but with 217 and 910 along with yourselves you guys were just as good of an alliance as any of us. I think the action taken was not necessary, but it's part of the rules and you can play them to your advantage. So I respect your decision and it was a smart play on your guys part.

Ok you say it was not nessesary. so tell me this if we did not do this would you have picked team 33 or team 67 or team 217 if we hadn't? it was a simple plan that has been used in the past and it is like you said "part of the rules". it was all plan and it was nothing personal to any of the teams. like i said it was just a plan that work up untill finals.

[PizzmasterP27]

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with what you said. It was just a good, affective plan

It just that you were going to team up with thunder chickens... no doubt about it. But even if there was a so called "super-alliance", you and thunder chickens (and whoever your partner may have been), would still have been a competitive alliance. If I was in your position I would have probably done the same thing...I am just saying that with out your "plan", you would have still been an effect and formidable alliance. You guys were ranked #1 for a reason.

I do not want to disagree or argue...i am just saying that your alliance still would have had a chance to win.

[Chaos Marine]

Originally Posted by PizzmasterP27

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with what you said. It was just a good, affective plan

It just that you were going to team up with thunder chickens... no doubt about it. But even if there was a so called "super-alliance", you and thunder chickens (and whoever your partner may have been), would still have been a competitive alliance. If I was in your position I would have probably done the same thing...I am just saying that with out your "plan", you would have still been an effect and formidable alliance. You guys were ranked #1 for a reason.

I do not want to disagree or argue...i am just saying that your alliance still would have had a chance to win.

Well i am glad that you understand what we were going for. And just to get this out there, most people already no this, just because we were ranked #1 does not mean by any standerds that we were the best. I am not going to try and fool my-self or anyone else. i know for a fact that we got lucky and got into the top 8. All we have going for us at this time is a good Defense and a ok lap runner. but if we would have just gone and picked 217 we might have had a chance but we did not want to take that risk.

[Paul Copioli]

I did not want to go down this road in this thread, but since it already has travelled there I feel it is imperative that I respond to any and all hints that what transpired was against FIRST rules, against the spirit of the rules, or just plain underhanded.

I will first say this: the strategy that was implemented was 100% initiated by me. No one else on 217 or 66 were in on it. I brought it up to 66 right after we found out we might be selected by them. If you do not agree with the strategy that is laid out in this post, that is fine but blame no one but me. Also, this post is brutally honest, so I hope no one gets hard feelings, but it may happen.

One important note: prior to any discussion between team 66 and team 217, team 66 approached the Hot team as 66 wanted to pick Hot first. This is a fact and team 66 was sincere when they approached team 67.

I asked team 66 if they were going to pick us (all indications were that this was a fact) and they stated that they approached team 67 first and 67 told 66 they would probably say no. As a result, team 217 was their first choice. Team 217 really wanted to be selected by the #2 team, 47, but knew that telling 66 we would say no to them was just a lie since we were out of the top 8.

I considered this a dilemma as I did not think the alliance would go very far in the eliminations as I predicted we needed two good hurdlers to win. 66 was not a hurdler. I decided we needed to use the blocking strategy. This strategy is perfectly legitimate and, given the ridiculous serpentine draft (don't get me started), basically the only way a team seeded at number 1 can defend against super alliances. I knew that 27 and 33 would say no to 66, not because I asked them, but because that is what team 217 would have done in their position. Granted, team 66 was not comfortable with this as they thought 27 or 33 would say yes. I knew this was simply not the case.

Now for team 67. I have to admit that I thought the chances of 67 saying yes were 50/50, but in either case both 217 and 66 were to benefit from the blocking strategy. I will say this, I strongly urged 66 to ask 67 anyway because I basically did not trust that 67 would say no to a 47 or 27 or 33 if 66 just trusted 67. **See the historical side note at the bottom of this post** for the reason.

I firmly believe that if it was not for this blocking strategy, our alliance would not have made it to the finals. If any member of any of the teams are angry or displeased about the turn of events, please PM me and we can discuss it. However, I have no regrets for what transpired and I believe it is a perfectly legitimate strategy well within the rules and guidelines given to us.

-Paul

**Historical Side Note**
At the 2003 MidWest Regional, we were the number 2 seed and wanted to pair with Baxter (team 16). We asked them ahead of time if they would accept and their response was, "no, because we want to select our own alliance." Given that, we decided to just select our number 2 pick at the time (111, if you can believe they were our second choice). During alliance selections, they accpeted an offer from the number 3 alliance and eventually defeated our alliance in the semi-finals. This little FIRST lesson will always be with team 217 and we will continue to use the blocking strategy as long as it is within the FIRST rules to do so.

[Jim Meyer]

I believe what Chaos Marine is saying doesn't really tell the whole story. After talking with them I believe they approached teams in the pit starting with the top team from their scouting data. Each of those teams were seeded and each told them privately that they would rather lead their own alliance. They made it down their list to 217 who would gladly accept their alliance. So now they have a list of teams who have said they will decline their alliance proposal. I believe it was a this time they chose to stick with their original list and be declined on the field, which because of the rules, it was clearly in their best interest.

I believe the confusion has arisen due to the fact that most other teams had 217 at the top of their list. No conspiracy theory, just a bit of a misunderstanding IMHO.

66 feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: After reading Paul's post, I guess my info was a little off, turns out it's a combination of the two. It's a tactic that's certainly within the rules, but I'm willing to bet this aspect of the rule is an unintentional side effect.

[daf]

1) Is there a website or anyone that has vids of the GLR matches?

2) I was also wondering if some teams could share their scouting method (not how they scout, but what they look for). The reason I'm asking is because my team (894) finished with a 6-2 record and on the ranks ended up at 12. Unfortunately though, we didn't get selected into the quarterfinals. I'm not complaining (I'll admit I was frustrated), but I just want to know why so we can improve it and make our robot better. (There were some teams that got selected and I was very surprised because I thought that there were a few other robots that had better qualities.) But like I said, just want to know what some of the teams looked for....Thanks and hope to see you all at nationals.