Look Back: Week 5

[hipsterjr]

LookingForward, once again you disappoint me. Ask anyone who attended Palmetto and they will tell you that it was the most intense final in the events history. Pit Admin. said you were there, but I guess not since you completely over looked Palmetto. Don't take this the wrong way; I know you can't watch every single regional and report every detail. Just thought it was worth mention.

[eshteyn]

Week 5 was horrible for us, we suffered immense mechanical difficulty and ended up rebuilding the transmissions, replacing 4 motors, 4 victors, and 4 gears that connect the motors to the transmissions. It was horrible, by the last day we went 4 for 4 and now were back to full power.

[Frenchie]

27 did not break a drive shaft. They tipped over after getting hit. It came as quite a disappointment as 469 played their best match yet, hurdling better than any other robot on the field.

[nikeairmancurry]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

27 did not break a drive shaft. They tipped over after getting hit. It came as quite a disappointment as 469 played their best match yet, hurdling better than any other robot on the field.

Actually Nobody hit 27 they caused the tip on their own.. I was the driver and they hit me as i was stationary agasint my allaince wall and they tipped over when they hit us at full speed and then got the pentaly for it..

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry

Actually Nobody hit 27 they caused the tip on their own.. I was the driver and they hit me as i was stationary agasint my allaince wall and they tipped over when they hit us at full speed and then got the pentaly for it..

Wrong, that match was a 'penalty free match.' Which I have no idea how - there were flags flying everywhere. I'd like to see the replay of just how they got tipped over, I suppose they'll be up online at some point. I wasn't watching that side of the field so I won't say anything, but to say the least, it was sad to see it happen.

[nikeairmancurry]

I swear i remember hearing the penelty.. but you could be right.. Yet i am sure that 27 feel over after hitting us fully extended.. for one it was my our robot that it hit and two it was right in front of me.. sad yes, but true so..

[Elgin Clock]

In the battle between arms (341 & 365) and launchers (103 & 272), the deciding factor was a robot that was neither an effective hurdler nor lapper. For the second year in a row, Chuck (84) played canny defense and avoided penalties to deny or delay their opponents scoring opportunities.

I honestly don't know how they didn't acquire more penalties for their "canny" actions. If only I was into conspiracy theory.

It truly boggles the mind though.
Their trend definitely didn't start in the finals either.
The semifinals were a large "gray area" with no penalties given for borderline shady moves for defense as well in my opinion.

[Danny McC]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

I honestly don't know how they didn't acquire more penalties for their "canny" actions. If only I was into conspiracy theory.

It truly boggles the mind though.
Their trend definitely didn't start in the finals either.
The semifinals were a large "gray area" with no penalties given for borderline shady moves for defense as well in my opinion.

I agree 100%

[Herodotus]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

I honestly don't know how they didn't acquire more penalties for their "canny" actions. If only I was into conspiracy theory.

It truly boggles the mind though.
Their trend definitely didn't start in the finals either.
The semifinals were a large "gray area" with no penalties given for borderline shady moves for defense as well in my opinion.

Could you elaborate on what these shady moves were? It has been my experience that people are far overestimating how restrictive the rules are on defense. You can herd your opponents ball as much as you want, you can pin it as much as you want, and outside of their homezone you can push your opponents themselves around as much as you want, so long as it is within the bumper zone. If a red bot were to push a blue bot all the way across the field it would be fine so long as the blue bot doesn't have a trackball and isn't in their homezone.

The only thing I would like to say about this looking back feature is that we, team 910, managed to do more than simply feed 217 balls. In our last couple matches we managed to hurdle 3 - 4 times as well. Not the same level as 217 at all, but we weren't just the little feeder bot either. It wasn't so much that 217 carried the alliance as much as it was all three members of the alliance helped to carry it. It don't think we could have gotten as far as we did without all three of us working together.

No Atlanta for us, but hopefully we'll make a good showing in the off-season. See you all then, and good luck at Atlanta.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by Herodotus

Could you elaborate on what these shady moves were? It has been my experience that people are far overestimating how restrictive the rules are on defense. You can herd your opponents ball as much as you want, you can pin it as much as you want, and outside of their homezone you can push your opponents themselves around as much as you want, so long as it is within the bumper zone. If a red bot were to push a blue bot all the way across the field it would be fine so long as the blue bot doesn't have a trackball and isn't in their homezone.

I would consider those all shady moves that have been played out by teams this year.

You are not making any friends on the field (or off) when you try any of these.
Maybe to some teams this isn't what it's all about, and that trophy means more than the spirit of the game.

Accidental tipping, or something like that is different, especially when drivers come over and apologize for actions like that even after a match no matter who won or lost. GP in effect! w00t!

But the above mentioned other actions, and thus finding loopholes in rules on the field won't make you popular in the long run.

That's all I'm trying to say.

[Herodotus]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

I would consider those all shady moves that have been played out by teams this year.

You are not making any friends on the field (or off) when you try any of these.
Maybe to some teams this isn't what it's all about, and that trophy means more than the spirit of the game.

Accidental tipping, or something like that is differentr, especially when drivers come over and apologize for actions like that even after a match no matter who won or lost.

Finding loopholes in rules on the field won't make you popular in the long run.

That's all I'm trying to say.

I would in no way support any behavior that results in damage to the field or robots or anything that goes against the rules, but anything else goes(ok, not explicitly anything else, but I think people know what I mean). Pinning the ball, herding it around, or pushing your opponents are all perfectly valid defensive strategies, and in many cases are not only a good way to win, but the only way to win.

Imagine this, you are on a team that has two lap bots and one launcher. You just happen to be on the field against 1114, 217, and 27. The only chance you have of winning, guaranteed, is to pin both of their balls, and to never let them hurdle, ever. It is a tenacious form of play in the face of an overwhelmingly superior offensive team, and I doubt a single one of those teams would fault you for such a strategy, and would instead congratulate you on a game well played.

Moreover it is absolutely inspiring to me to see a team do this because it shows a tenacity and willingness to compete that is essential to gracious professionalism. Being gracious means following the rules, but being a professional means attempting to win while following those rules. We in FIRST often seem to forget the professionalism part of GP. Losing a match you could have won because some people decided they didn't like your entirely legal and nondestructive strategy is downright unprofessional.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Herodotus

I would in no way support any behavior that results in damage to the field or robots or anything that goes against the rules, but anything else goes(ok, not explicitly anything else, but I think people know what I mean). Pinning the ball, herding it around, or pushing your opponents are all perfectly valid defensive strategies, and in many cases are not only a good way to win, but the only way to win.

Imagine this, you are on a team that has two lap bots and one launcher. You just happen to be on the field against 1114, 217, and 27. The only chance you have of winning, guaranteed, is to pin both of their balls, and to never let them hurdle, ever. It is a tenacious form of play in the face of an overwhelmingly superior offensive team, and I doubt a single one of those teams would fault you for such a strategy, and would instead congratulate you on a game well played.

Moreover it is absolutely inspiring to me to see a team do this because it shows a tenacity and willingness to compete that is essential to gracious professionalism. Being gracious means following the rules, but being a professional means attempting to win while following those rules. We in FIRST often seem to forget the professionalism part of GP. Losing a match you could have won because some people decided they didn't like your entirely legal and nondestructive strategy is downright unprofessional.

I agree with this to a certain extent. Following the rules in playing defense is playing the game. If another alliance is outright a better offensive team, your only strategy is to play legal defense. With the right defense put on by good teams, ANY alliance can be beaten. Its been proven in matches both seeding and elim at various regionals in various weeks.
The agreed upon "best" robot(s) dont always win. Its always the best alliance that plays as a team with great strategy, with either outstanding or good robots.

[FoleyEngineer]

In an effort to make this game more "crowd friendly", I think the game designers wanted to reduce or nearly eliminate defense as a strategy and make it look more like NASCAR where there are bots just zooming around the field racing across the finish lines. I believe this concept is flawed for several reasons...

1) Basically, if it's "the team with the most firepower/speed wins" - which is what a purely offensive game really is, then I can tell you who will win before the match starts. The score will just show the faster / more-hurdling team getting farther and farther ahead until the two minutes of "fun" is over and one team has 100+ points while the other has oh, maybe 20 or so. Yahoo. Not a lot of crowd appeal there! You would hardly need to watch any match with say 3 hurdlers against 1 or even two good ones against one good one. It's like a basketball game where two guys on one team get to shoot baskets with each having their own ball, and only one on guy on the other does - oh, and there's no defense allowed! Just grab the balls and keep pumping them in. No suspense, not much strategy, and not much fun to watch.

2) Because there are so many rookie teams who can't hurdle, they have to do something. Without doing defense what are they left with? Lapping. Okay, it takes 5 laps to equal 1 hurdle. Even a basic hurdler that does it twice forces his counterpart to make 10 laps to tie him. If he places at the end, you can forget it. Where does that leave all the rookies and teams that can't hurdle? What do you want them to do?

3) If they really wanted it to be only speed and offense, then they needed to make the hurdles worth 4 and laps worth 2. Then you'd see an entirely different game. I'm glad they didn't because it wouldnt' reward the effort of making a hurdler, but it would eliminate the need for ball pinning, or anything else - it would just be a race.

4) The crowd appreciates defense! Imagine ANY game or sport with multiple players without defense. Basketball, football, hockey, baseball, even NASCAR has defense (people don't always politely move aside and let the faster car just go by). That's what makes the offense worthwhile! Heck if there's no defense, then you just run down the field and score a touchdown every play, right? That's not football, that's track and field!

5) Defense = strategy. It's a real challenge figuring out how to "counter" an offensive superpower, or how to team up maybe 2 on 1 (like Basketball or Football) to try and win. It makes even a slow lapbot feel worthwhile. We played with a team last weekend that could not hurdle or knock, and could only do two or three laps per match! It was tough trying to make that work for us, but we had them pin a ball and they slowed down our opponents and made a real significant contribution to the alliance! Take away their ability to defend, and you might as well tell them to go home and come back next year.

Bottom line is that you need both: offense - to be appreciated for the beauty and speed of racing around the track, or grabbing the ball effortlessly and hurdling so fast they hardly have to slow down, and defense to counter the scorers and make them WORK for their points and have to dodge traffic and race or even fight for the balls. I think that's what makes the game really exciting.

[Ashley Weed]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

I honestly don't know how they didn't acquire more penalties for their "canny" actions. If only I was into conspiracy theory.

... ouch

[Zflash]

Originally Posted by hipsterjr

LookingForward, once again you disappoint me. Ask anyone who attended Palmetto and they will tell you that it was the most intense final in the events history. Pit Admin. said you were there, but I guess not since you completely over looked Palmetto. Don't take this the wrong way; I know you can't watch every single regional and report every detail. Just thought it was worth mention.

Often a person can overlook great things when they are next to other great things. Week 5 had many regioinals with many exciting events. After qualifications 1319 thought they too may have been overlooked after dropping out of the top eight on Friday. Luckily there was one great team in the form of 1249 who realized our teams potential and chose to go with us. We played a total of eight elim matches without any robot on the alliance failing or breaking with some better luck we may have all gone a little further.