Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball

[JesseK]

Get your alliance partner to act like he's stuck on a corner. Then you bump the opponent who's trapping the ball. BAM opponent has to move. Counter to the ridiculous counter of the loophole through the rule.

So let's say you decide to take this strategy with your bot:

There are now 3 opponent robots working together with a single track ball who are STILL scoring points. You my friend are not. You built a $10,000 robot that has the objective of sitting in a corner entraping a ball -- $10 worth of cinder blocks could do the same thing, so why even waste the engineering effort and money to build the machine?

Take this strategy and you will be outscored by an alliance that works together, and believe me after last year's bot-to-bot ramping there are quite a few teams who are figuring their strategies & designs based upon helping their alliance out in addition to their own team status.

[redbarron]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Get your alliance partner to act like he's stuck on a corner. Then you bump the opponent who's trapping the ball. BAM opponent has to move. Counter to the ridiculous counter of the loophole through the rule.

So let's say you decide to take this strategy with your bot:

There are now 3 opponent robots working together with a single track ball who are STILL scoring points. You my friend are not. You built a $10,000 robot that has the objective of sitting in a corner entraping a ball -- $10 worth of cinder blocks could do the same thing, so why even waste the engineering effort and money to build the machine?

Take this strategy and you will be outscored by an alliance that works together, and believe me after last year's bot-to-bot ramping there are quite a few teams who are figuring their strategies & designs based upon helping their alliance out in addition to their own team status.

I think the purpose of this strategy is to be a designated defensive bot its not a strategy that is going to ruin the game. There are still 2 other robots on your team. You would not be wasting money or engineering if your strategy pays off and wins you the match like Gary's signature says an ugly win is still a win..

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by redbarron

I think the purpose of this strategy is to be a designated defensive bot its not a strategy that is going to ruin the game. There are still 2 other robots on your team. You would not be wasting money or engineering if your strategy pays off and wins you the match like Gary's signature says an ugly win is still a win..

You miss the point completely.

[lukevanoort]

I don't think anyone is proposing building your robot with this as its sole purpose. If your [mechanism] breaks and you're up against a couple of good hurdlers, this might be a very useful strategy in your repertoire. You could drive in circles for a couple points a lap, or you could pin the ball and reduce one of your opponents' scoring ability from ten points per lap down to two. That seems like a useful backup strategy to me.

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by JesseK

You miss the point completely.

OK, I guess I miss your point also. What was it exactly?

There are 3 robots on each alliance, and only 2 trackballs. Ignore hurdling for a moment; the other alliance can score 8 points per lap (3 robots + 1 ball x 2 pts each) and yours can also score 8 per lap (2 robots + 2 balls x 2 pts each) while you sit in the corner with 1 ball, so that's a draw. If you can trap 2 balls then the other alliance can only score 6 per lap versus your 8.

Now add hurdling. Your alliance has 2 balls with opportunity for the 6 point bonus each lap; the other alliance only has 1. How can that not be a benefit?

And why not use cinder blocks? Because accomplishing this strategy is not a done deal. You are going to have to fight to contain the balls - your robot needs traction, a good plow that protects but doesn't possess, some maneuverability. It needs to stow in the envelope and deploy to work.

If my robot can keep your robot from using its fantastic hurdler to score, who wasted the $10k? If defense wasn't a desirable aspect to the game, why not just put one alliance on the field at a time? Certainly you can score better with noone going against you. If your strategy involves scoring the ball you better design your robot to obtain a ball - which includes from the overpass or from the track or from another robot trying to block you.

[pheadxdll]

Instead of baracading yourself in the corner, why not take possion of the trackball and make your rounds around the track. That way you won't impede traffic and you'll earn points as well. Not a very nice strategy, but I guess you could call it defense.

Seems like its barely not against the rules to have possion of two trackballs as long as you don't hurdle one, but I will be amazed if anyone builds a robot that can keep in possion 2 40" diameter balls.

[artdutra04]

I don't see much of a return on investment in this.

While you sit there "blocking" the trackball: a. you are not scoring points. b. the other alliance can still be doing laps without the one of their trackballs and continuing to score points, and c. Contact in the bumper zone is still allowed, so long as it's not egregious behavior.

If a robot from the other alliance is trying to push my trackball into a 135^o corner, I'd tell my drivers to just start pushing their robot. No high speed ramming or egregious behavior, just solid bumper-to-bumper contact. With the covers on the trackballs being so slippery, something will give, and I doubt that trackball will stay cornered for very long.

Now if there were 90^o corners on the playing field, this strategy would be much more viable. But with the current field, I can't see it working for very long against a robot with a decent driver and drive train.

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by pheadxdll

Instead of baracading yourself in the corner, why not take possion of the trackball and make your rounds around the track. That way you won't impede traffic and you'll earn points as well. Not a very nice strategy, but I guess you could call it defense.

Seems like its barely not against the rules to have possion of two trackballs as long as you don't hurdle one, but I will be amazed if anyone builds a robot that can keep in possion 2 40" diameter balls.

2 reasons:

1) <G29> POSSESSING Opponent’s TRACKBALLS - ROBOTS may not be in the POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL belonging to an opposing ALLIANCE. A PENALTY will be assigned for each violation. HERDING of an opponent’s TRACKBALL and removing an opponent’s TRACKBALL from the OVERPASS is permitted.

So, you can't possess the other alliance's ball, but you can herd it. But:

<G10> Each TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE while not in contact with a ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE will earn 2 points.

So, if you herd your opponents' ball around the track (and therefore across their finish line) you are scoring 2 pts for them, which offset the 2 pts you score for crossing your own finish line.

[lukevanoort]

Originally Posted by Gary Dillard

2 reasons:

1) <G29> POSSESSING Opponent’s TRACKBALLS - ROBOTS may not be in the POSSESSION of a TRACKBALL belonging to an opposing ALLIANCE. A PENALTY will be assigned for each violation. HERDING of an opponent’s TRACKBALL and removing an opponent’s TRACKBALL from the OVERPASS is permitted.

So, you can't possess the other alliance's ball, but you can herd it. But:

<G10> Each TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE while not in contact with a ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE will earn 2 points.

So, if you herd your opponents' ball around the track (and therefore across their finish line) you are scoring 2 pts for them, which offset the 2 pts you score for crossing your own finish line.

If you're already in the lead (and can herd the ball very well), that might be useful though; it would drive up your RPs. Hurdlers still can't get the ball and the match score increases equally for both alliances, so the net effect is the same (assuming you can keep control of the ball).

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by lukevanoort

If you're already in the lead (and can herd the ball very well), that might be useful though; it would drive up your RPs. Hurdlers still can't get the ball and the match score increases equally for both alliances, so the net effect is the same (assuming you can keep control of the ball).

Good point - a strategy in the end game to maintain the lead AND increase RP's

[IbleedPink233]

This will definitely be a viable strategy for many teams [I know of one team that will use it for sure (I wonder who it could be. . . 233, or other. . . ?)] - we'll just have to see how the game plays, how teams go about this strategy, and how creative/aggressive teams get when trying to counter it.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

I don't see much of a return on investment in this.
While you sit there "blocking" the trackball: a. you are not scoring points. b. the other alliance can still be doing laps without the one of their trackballs and continuing to score points, and c. Contact in the bumper zone is still allowed, so long as it's not egregious behavior.
If a robot from the other alliance is trying to push my trackball into a 135^o corner, I'd tell my drivers to just start pushing their robot. No high speed ramming or egregious behavior, just solid bumper-to-bumper contact. With the covers on the trackballs being so slippery, something will give, and I doubt that trackball will stay cornered for very long.
Now if there were 90^o corners on the playing field, this strategy would be much more viable. But with the current field, I can't see it working for very long against a robot with a decent driver and drive train.

Someone forgot to take into account the force if ramming a ball in a corner, and it getting popped.



I'm glad I found this thread.

Here's an example of something that has happened.


Team A traps team B's trackball against the corner consisting of the grated area making the Robocoach's wall & the Lexan players station wall on Team A's lane side.
Team B can not get to their trackball without crossing the Lane Divider in the legal direction, & going around Team A in reverse (illegal way) over the Lane Divider line.
To do this, Team B would get at least one 10pt. penalty.

There is a clear way to go past, so Team A is not technically blocking a lane / impeding traffic. (No Penalty)

Team A pins Team B's ball there for a good 30 seconds while Team B makes an effort to get it by staying around Team A and bumping Team A so they will move away from the ball.

That's not the end of the story though.

Upon Team A finally letting up on the pinning strategy, & pushing it forward over the Lane Divider line, Team B grabs the ball... It's now losing air from being pinned so tightly into the wall.

Team B tries to grab the ball but fails at hurdling the ball as it falls out of their grabber before it is at a height to go over the Overpass & is made inactive on the field.
Now, with a minute or so left in the match, a new ball is made ready at the sidelines, but never put into the arena, and the popped ball sits there just losing more & more air with a new ball nowhere to be found.

Team B loses the match.

Team A is assessed no penalties for any play in question.
(Popped ball, impeding traffic, pinning an opponent's trackball)

Upon waiting for a decision, & seeing the score with Team B losing by a small amount (which a good ball would have been able to compensate for), the match & plays are legally disputed with a Student from Team B & the Head Referee, but no penalties are given to Team A, nor is a rematch granted.


What do you think about pinning a ball now, and the legality of it?

Actually, let's do one of these. Based on the 2008 rules, You make the call!!

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

Someone forgot to take into account the force if ramming a ball in a corner, and it getting popped.



I'm glad I found this thread.

Here's an example of something that has happened.


Team A traps team B's trackball against the corner consisting of the grated area making the Robocoach's wall & the Lexan players station wall on Team A's lane side.
Team B can not get to their trackball without crossing the Lane Divider in the legal direction, & going around Team A in reverse (illegal way) over the Lane Divider line.
To do this, Team B would get at least one 10pt. penalty.

There is a clear way to go past, so Team A is not technically blocking a lane / impeding traffic. (No Penalty)

Team A pins Team B's ball there for a good 30 seconds while Team B makes an effort to get it by staying around Team A and bumping Team A so they will move away from the ball.

That's not the end of the story though.

Upon Team A finally letting up on the pinning strategy, & pushing it forward over the Lane Divider line, Team B grabs the ball... It's now losing air from being pinned so tightly into the wall.

Team B tries to grab the ball but fails at hurdling the ball as it falls out of their grabber before it is at a height to go over the Overpass & is made inactive on the field.
Now, with a minute or so left in the match, a new ball is made ready at the sidelines, but never put into the arena, and the popped ball sits there just losing more & more air with a new ball nowhere to be found.

Team B loses the match.

Team A is assessed no penalties for any play in question.
(Popped ball, impeding traffic, pinning an opponent's trackball)

Upon waiting for a decision, & seeing the score with Team B losing by a small amount (which a good ball would have been able to compensate for), the match & plays are legally disputed with a Student from Team B & the Head Referee, but no penalties are given to Team A, nor is a rematch granted.


What do you think about pinning a ball now, and the legality of it?

Actually, let's do one of these. Based on the 2008 rules, You make the call!!

At first i thought you were talking about GTR and 1507's strategy once they were almost not operational. I would personally see it as a valid argument as a no penalty play as long as there is not anything with sharp edges on the robot that was pinning in the area that was in contact with the ball. If there is then, shouldn't they be in violation of the rules of harming the field elements? It is a unique strategy and will probably be used (if not already, you make it sound like it happened) sometime during week 6 and most likely down in Atlanta. I know how hard it is to stop even one amazing shooting robot. In many matches 1930 had a broken gripper and was being worked on as we were playing matches. I had my driver play some hard defense and played the ball more then the opposing robot. It proved to me there is defense in this game and can also be very legal. I even remember shutting down one of the top scoring robots via not letting even touch a ball. Also remember trying to stop 1126, but couldn't do it because of their speed and ability to grasp the ball so quickly. Maybe if I tried out the strategy you described here, we would have been more successful at stopping them.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

Someone forgot to take into account the force if ramming a ball in a corner, and it getting popped.



I'm glad I found this thread.

Here's an example of something that has happened.


Team A traps team B's trackball against the corner consisting of the grated area making the Robocoach's wall & the Lexan players station wall on Team A's lane side.
Team B can not get to their trackball without crossing the Lane Divider in the legal direction, & going around Team A in reverse (illegal way) over the Lane Divider line.
To do this, Team B would get at least one 10pt. penalty.

There is a clear way to go past, so Team A is not technically blocking a lane / impeding traffic. (No Penalty)

Team A pins Team B's ball there for a good 30 seconds while Team B makes an effort to get it by staying around Team A and bumping Team A so they will move away from the ball.

That's not the end of the story though.

Upon Team A finally letting up on the pinning strategy, & pushing it forward over the Lane Divider line, Team B grabs the ball... It's now losing air from being pinned so tightly into the wall.

Team B tries to grab the ball but fails at hurdling the ball as it falls out of their grabber before it is at a height to go over the Overpass & is made inactive on the field.
Now, with a minute or so left in the match, a new ball is made ready at the sidelines, but never put into the arena, and the popped ball sits there just losing more & more air with a new ball nowhere to be found.

Team B loses the match.

Team A is assessed no penalties for any play in question.
(Popped ball, impeding traffic, pinning an opponent's trackball)

Upon waiting for a decision, & seeing the score with Team B losing by a small amount (which a good ball would have been able to compensate for), the match & plays are legally disputed with a Student from Team B & the Head Referee, but no penalties are given to Team A, nor is a rematch granted.


What do you think about pinning a ball now, and the legality of it?

Actually, let's do one of these. Based on the 2008 rules, You make the call!!

Sounds like great defense as long as the ball being popped was not caused by egregious (sp?) behavior or sharp points on team A.

Team A did not impede traffic, pinning the ball is not against the rules, and new track balls are entered into the field only when it is safe to do so.

Score 1 for the defense.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

...

Team B loses the match.

Team A is assessed no penalties for any play in question.
(Popped ball, impeding traffic, pinning an opponent's trackball)

You make the call!!

You already did. There is no penalty. You admitted they did not impede B, so no penalty for that. Popping the ball is not a penalty, although it could result in a re-inspection for sharp points or edges. Pinning the trackball against the wall is not possession:

Originally Posted by Game Rules

POSSESSION: Controlling the position and movement of a TRACKBALL while the TRACKBALL is
supported or captured by an ALLIANCE shall be considered POSSESSION of the TRACKBALL. A
TRACKBALL shall be considered “supported” by a ROBOT if in the estimation of a reasonably
astute observer the majority of the weight of the TRACKBALL is being borne by the ROBOT. A
TRACKBALL shall be considered “captured” by a ROBOT if, as the ROBOT moves or changes
orientation (e.g. backs up or spins in place), the TRACKBALL remains in approximately the same
position relative to the ROBOT. Both the “supported” and “captured” conditions include the case
where the TRACKBALL is also in contact with the floor.

No penalty.

A rookie team, 2612, did this at GLR to shut down the opposing alliance, which included 47.