Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball

[Joe J.]

Originally Posted by web_master_dpep

You guys did great tho. Hope the best to you guys. im with 66. Are you going to Atlanta?

Thanks, it was a blast playing against you guys. Sadly no GLR was our last stop, though I believe 291 and 573 are going to Atlanta. Good luck to you guys.

[web_master_dpep]

Thank you. Well hope to see you guys next year at GLR.

[FoleyEngineer]

Originally Posted by Joe J.

Its a valid strategy and in some cases the only one that will work. We used it as part of the #8 alliance of 291, 862, 573 in the quarterfinals against #1 66, 217, 910. We tried only having one robot play defense on the other trackballs and it didn't work 114 to 62, the next two matches we had two robots dedicated to playing keep away with other trackballs and 217, the first time it allowed us to tie them at 54 (with a penalty on them), then next we tried it again but they beat use by having 910 grab a trackball while we doubled up on 217 trying to keep the other away from them, then 217 was able to come around and grab the trackball 910 was holding and hurdle that one. Doing that they won 88 to 62. It was amazing (and slightly scary) looking down the field while coaching and seeing 217 pick up a trackball out of 910. Simply an awesome counter to our defense.

When we had played in the morning with two rookie teams that had no hurdling capability and limited lapping, we suggested they "feed us balls" and we'd hurdle them. That way we could get twice the bang for the buck as sometimes getting around the track can be a nightmare - especially when being "slowed" and defended heavily, or with traffic jams.

We talked about using this strategy with 217 before we started our first playoff match. Paul Copioli and I kept in constant communications behind the drivers watching to see how the opponents played us. If they let 217 get the ball, then we grabbed one ourselves and scored it (usually 3 to 4 a match which complemented their 5 to 6). If however they got boxed up or couldn't get a ball, we'd deliver our ball to them in our home zone and while they were shooting it, go get the other ball that had been left behind. That left the defender(s) caught between "waiting" for them to shoot and beginning to defend again, or going after us. Either way, we had a free bot to grab, and pass or score the other ball. Similarly if one of us got hung up on the overpass, the other alliance partner was there as fast as possible to free them. I think having the coaches discuss and plan stragegies like this ahead of time and then communicating during the matches can make all the difference in the world.

On another note, we also did the same type of planning for hybrid mode. It took us a few matches to work out the timing (delays) and positions so that all three of us could get our 3 or 4 lines without bumping into each other. An auton switch with a variable delay can be a lifesaver!

[vadyr]

I don't mean to sound nasty or negative, I really don't agree with all of this talk about pinning the ball. For one, it takes the whole concept of the game and crushes it. The game this year was designed to be an offensive game, not a defensive game. Sure, defense will always be a part of the game but it comes in other forms. How about instead of pinning the trackball and basically giving a low-blow to the other alliance, just keep it out of the opposing alliance's possession. Get in the way when they are trying to pick it up, or push it out of the way. If you really are trying to ruin the game then by all means pin the ball in a corner, but it is not a sportsman-like strategy. It may not technically be against the rules, but does it really seem right?

[ALIBI]

Is cornering an opponents trackball legal? This strategy is becoming very affective and will no doubt be a part of game play in Atlanta. I see nothing in the rules that prevents you from knocking an opponents trackball all over the field, the rules even allow you to herd and hurdle (knocking off overpass in a counter clockwise direction) your opponents trackball. As I read the definition of POSSESSION a few questions come to mind:

POSSESSION: Controlling the position and movement of a TRACKBALL while the TRACKBALL is supported or captured by an ALLIANCE shall be considered POSSESSION of the TRACKBALL. A TRACKBALL shall be considered “supported” by a ROBOT if in the estimation of a reasonably astute observer the majority of the weight of the TRACKBALL is being borne by the ROBOT. A TRACKBALL shall be considered “captured” by a ROBOT if, as the ROBOT moves or changes orientation (e.g. backs up or spins in place), the TRACKBALL remains in approximately the same position relative to the ROBOT. Both the “supported” and “captured” conditions include the case
where the TRACKBALL is also in contact with the floor.

If you have a trackball pinned between you and a field element, are you controlling the position of the trackball?

If you have a trackball pinned between you and a field element, by preventing the trackball from moving, are you controlling the movement of a trackball?

If you have a trackball pinned between you and a field element and when you move back and forth, the trackball stays pinned between you and the filed element, have you captured the trackball?

I do not necessarily like lawyering the rules. However, the GDC has made it clear that they do not want you to possess your opponents trackball. I see pinning your opponents trackball as approaching the fine line between affective defense and possession. When you pin a trackball, I believe you are controlling the position of that trackball. By definition, "and", you must also control the movement of the trackball. Is preventing the trackball from moving, also controlling the movement of the trackball. I don't know. Anyone else have any comments?

From the Q & A:

"The difference between Herding and Possession (specifically "captured") is inherent in the influence the Robot has over the Trackball's movement. A Robot is Herding if it pushes, bumps, rolls, etc a Trackball in a particular direction, but the Trackball is not controlled by the Robot. A Robot has "captured" a Trackball if it consistently controls the location of a Trackball with reference to the Robot.

We cannot comment on specific assemblies and designs."

If a trackball is consistantly pinned between you and a field element, or located between you and a field element, have you captured that trackball? Playing keep away is a permitted strategy, I am not sure that pinning a trackball is in the spirit of this years game.

[GaryVoshol]

Pinning the ball against a wall is not possession, because if the robot would move the ball would not move with it.

[ALIBI]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Pinning the ball against a wall is not possession, because if the robot would move the ball would not move with it.

I really do not have any problems with pinning going either way. It is just that when a trackball is pinned in a corner and an alliance can not get to it, it just looks captured.

[petek]

I had the best seat in the house to witness one example of this tactic: I was standing 6 ft away when 84 trapped their opponent's trackball against the robocoach fence and 103 successfully took it away - eventually. 84 did not possess or fully control the position of the ball at any time; they simply pushed it against the fence and made it difficult for 103 to get to it. Given the capabilities of those two machines, I feel this was the best tactic 84 could play. They certainly wouldn't have been able to harry a flying 103 on the run! But playing this game slowed their opponent down considerably, allowing their partners to close the gap with their faster-shooting opponents.

I feel that this is not a loophole or underhanded in any way, at least the way these teams played it. It was simply the best way that this robot could help their alliance partners. I believe that if the GDC had wanted this to be an offensive-only game, they would have put six trackballs on the overpass.

I'm pretty sure that 341 was overjoyed to find that 84 was still there for them to pick for their alliance, knowing how well they play alliance strategy and that they can be depended upon to play fair. They did win Philly together last year using much the same strategy, after all.

[SL8]

I gotta say we were "guilty" of this more than once, because at LSR the best way we saw for us to compete was to pin and push and block the trackballs away from our opponents in the semifinals at LSR.
We realized this after the first match (76,18) we lost and managed to almost eke out a win the second match (68,50) because of our defense. Unfortunately, our battery somehow shorted before halfway through the match.

Definitely not not GP though.

-Jesus

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by SL8

I gotta say we were "guilty" of this more than once, because at LSR the best way we saw for us to compete was to pin and push and block the trackballs away from our opponents in the semifinals at LSR.
We realized this after the first match (76,18) we lost and managed to almost eke out a win the second match (68,50) because of our defense. Unfortunately, our battery somehow shorted before halfway through the match.

Definitely not not GP though.

-Jesus

Hey if Jesus says pinning trackballs is GP, how can you argue with that?

So it has been written. So it shall be done.

[SL8]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

Hey if Jesus says pinning trackballs is GP, how can you argue with that?

So it has been written. So it shall be done.

I don't mind toomuch the puns on my name, some of them are actually funny.( Like this one)

When I said pinning, I did ean in the sense that we ran it agains the wall.

[JesseK]

It would seem that defensively bumping a trackball backwards after it's been hurdled would earn a much larger point differential than simply pinning a ball in place. It allows you to keep moving and forces the opponents to do 2 laps before hurdling that ball again (20-30 seconds of delay) instead of sitting in place for 15-20 seconds. Of course, this is subjective to being in the right place at the right time.

[SL8]

Originally Posted by JesseK

It would seem that defensively bumping a trackball backwards after it's been hurdled would earn a much larger point differential than simply pinning a ball in place. It allows you to keep moving and forces the opponents to do 2 laps before hurdling that ball again (20-30 seconds of delay) instead of sitting in place for 15-20 seconds. Of course, this is subjective to being in the right place at the right time.

I did mention pushing, but yes it all depends, especially when you consider that they will be getting four points on the way around and the opponent can come around in about 8 seconds only to pick up the ball.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

Hey if Jesus says pinning trackballs is GP, how can you argue with that?

So it has been written. So it shall be done.

Wrong Testament.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by JesseK

It would seem that defensively bumping a trackball backwards after it's been hurdled would earn a much larger point differential than simply pinning a ball in place. It allows you to keep moving and forces the opponents to do 2 laps before hurdling that ball again (20-30 seconds of delay) instead of sitting in place for 15-20 seconds. Of course, this is subjective to being in the right place at the right time.

Or try this - call it the Push-Pin strategy.....

Do what you said, but then have a partner pin it in their homestretch while you lap and do whatever. Repeat as necessary to achieve proper annoying effect........

Adds even more delay as not only would they have to lap the ball to get it "hurdleable" again, they'd have to waste even more time trying to pry it away from your defending partner first.

Even better, have your partner pass you your trackball across the opponent's finish line as you pass them the opponent's trackball. You would be free to grab your trackball, make the short quadrant jump to your homestretch, and hurdle away. Play a flexible offensive/defensive strategy throughout the match.

This all requires the proper coordination but it would be quite awesome to see, IMHO.