YMTC: Redabot breaks the plane after hybrid?

[Ashburn]

Thank you 2008 GDC! You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call.
Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

Welcome to the inaugural Dogwood Regional! Redateam is working hard on Redabot’s hybrid mode to get Redabot to knock off a red trackball, cross the red finish line, cross the first lane marker, and come whizzing back across the blue finish line to earn a whopping 20 points! Success has been ephemeral for Redateam so far at Dogwood, but they are hoping that their autonomous mode can earn them notice and perhaps even a pick from one of the top-ranked teams.

In their last match on Friday afternoon, Redateam places their robot on the field, ready to show their mettle. After the Randomizer gets its say, the red trackball is placed on the Red Overpass in the rightmost slot. At the beginning of the match, Redarobocoach signals to Redabot to bear right as it moves deliberately down the home stretch while unfurling its colorful pool-noodle ball-removing device. As its passes under the overpass, Redabot successfully knocks off a red trackball! Dictated by its autonomous programming, Redabot continues down the Red Lane, crossing the Red finish line. When it taps the Blualliance station wall, Redabot backs up slightly and makes a 90 degree turn to the left. Redabot then heads straight for the Blue Home Stretch and a motionless Bluabot! Before Redabot can fully cross the Lane Marker, it hits Bluabot (though not too hard) and comes to a halt. After pausing briefly, Redabot backs up slightly and again makes a 90 degree turn to the left. With every member of Redateam holding his or her breath with anxious anticipation, Redabot takes off like a rocket back down the field as time is running out. However, having not successfully crossed into the Blue Lane, Redabot is in fact heading clockwise back down the Red Lane! When the hybrid game clock strikes zero and the buzzer sounds, Redabot is just 2 feet from the Red finish line and speeding backwards down the Red Lane at nearly 12 ft/s. Redabot coasts across the Red finish line and continues moving until finally coming to rest against the Redalliance station wall. As the teleoperated period begins, Redateam breaths a heavy collective sigh of relief that no damage was done to its revered Redabot.


How many points, including possible penalties, has Redabot scored for Redalliance so far?

Based on the 2008 Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!

[James Tonthat]

Earns 4 pts (one line) + 8 pts (one ball down) = 12 - (2)(10) for breaking the plane = -8 points. No penalty for hitting the blue bot.

Edit: Lawl. I didn't see the poll. I've seen it called a -8 points at both the Lone Star and Bayou Regional.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by jtkellertx

Earns 4 pts (one line) + 8 pts (one ball down) = 12 - (2)(10) for breaking the plane = -8 points. No penalty for hitting the blue bot.

Edit: Lawl. I didn't see the poll. I've seen it called a -8 points at both the Lone Star and Bayou Regional.

The reason this isn't an option in the poll is because it isn't correct. Redabot never crossed into the Blue Home Stretch so the only potential G22 violation in the scenario as written is recrossing the red finish line in a clockwise direction.

The main issue at hand is the pause between hybrid and teleoperated. The manual discusses the potential existence of this pause, but does not define whether it is part of the match or not. I would lean towards not as a match is defined as 2 min. and 15 seconds long (7.11).

I think that every or nearly every ref would call a penalty for this, but in terms of strict interpretation of the rules this does not appear to be a G22 IMO. I don't see how a robot could commit a penalty while not in a period that constitutes part of a match.

My vote is for 12 pts.

[dtengineering]

I take it that the "non obvious" part of this post is that the crossing of the red finish line occurs while the robot is coasting, following the end of the hybrid period, but before the beginning of the teleoperated period.

If the robot were travelling in the "correct" direction it would not score points for crossing the line, since hybrid is finished but teleoperated has not yet begun. This is because the rules specifically require that the robot complete these acts during either teleoperated or hybrid periods in order to score.

I do not, however, believe that there is any such restriction on penalties, so the penalty for going backwards across the finish line should apply.

My scoring is: 8 for the ball, 4 for crossing the finish line in the correct direction, no points for crossing into the blue home stretch, since the robot did not make it completely into blue's home stretch... and thus no penalties, either... and a ten point penalty for crossing the red finish line in the "wrong" direction. 8+4-10=2.

Jason

Edit: Postings appeared here while I was writing... I do see the strength of the argument that the match is defined as 2:15 and thus the pause between telop and hybrid is not part of the match, however section 7.1.1 that defines the 2:15 length of the game states "The robots continue to play the game until the teleoperated period is over." indicating that the robots are playing the game during the pause, even though the pause is not part of the game... interesting ambiguity.

Hey! My 500th post!

[s_forbes]

I think that if you don't get points for coasting across a line after time runs out, you shouldn't be able to incur penalties after time runs out either. They didn't travel in a clockwise direction during any part of the match, so I say no penalty. (12 points! noodles rock!)

[Andy Baker]

Here's how I would call it (and how it was called at the Oklahoma City Regional):

Redabot crossed the red finish line backwards, but only after Hybrid Mode was completed. The coast that happened after Hybrid has the same effect as the coast at the end of the match... no penalty. <G01, G22>

12 points for red

Andy B.

[Danny McC]

I feel silly. I voted for two points and than I read the post over and realized it should be 12. You can't penalize that unless you plan on giving people points for coasting over as well.

[GaryVoshol]

I concur with the 12 points, no penalty.

The next interesting thing about this scenario is whether the first crossing of the red finish line in teleoperated counts for 2 points.

<G07> A ROBOT that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE must CROSS the opponent’s FINISH
LINE before it can score by CROSSING its own FINISH LINE again.

Since the robot has not yet crossed the opponent's finish line, the first crossing of the red finish line in teleop does not score.

[Travis Covington]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Here's how I would call it (and how it was called at the Oklahoma City Regional):

Redabot crossed the red finish line backwards, but only after Hybrid Mode was completed. The coast that happened after Hybrid has the same effect as the coast at the end of the match... no penalty. <G01, G22>

12 points for red

Andy B.

Exactly as I see it too!

[Pavan Dave]

If you deduct points for this, then you must give points if you cross a line while coasting. And since MANY MANY people have stated, and claimed that as unfair as it is, you should not get points, those people SHOULD end up voting for 12 points.

But in this world, rules change as time changes so you never know...



.

[KTorak]

Judging on how GLR was reffed it shouldn't be a penalty. Then again they said that a teams arm "fell" after power the end of the match just enough that it kept a ball from being supported by the bars but they still got the bonus points and causing us to lose 8 points. So I guess it depends on the reffing...

[Swan217]

Originally Posted by KTorak

Judging on how GLR was reffed it shouldn't be a penalty. Then again they said that a teams arm "fell" after power the end of the match just enough that it kept a ball from being supported by the bars but they still got the bonus points and causing us to lose 8 points. So I guess it depends on the reffing...

The call on that match was that the team's arm "fell" after power, so the ball DID count on the overpass. This is completely consistent with the other calls.

12 pts given when time expired for hybrid. No penalty.

[Mike8519]

12 points. As stated previously, as a buzzer goes off the robots are done scoring (whether it be + or -) where they stopped, trackballs however may still score given they were not touching the robots at the buzzer.

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by Pavan Dave

If you deduct points for this, then you must give points if you cross a line while coasting. And since MANY MANY people have stated, and claimed that as unfair as it is, you should not get points, those people SHOULD end up voting for 12 points.

While I agree that your statement about getting points when crossing should equal getting a penalty when crossing and vice-versa sounds reasonable, that is not what the rules say.

The rules say you may only score during hybrid or telop, and they list the specific ways that you can score during each period. A Q&A post also clarified that robots are scored in the position they are in at the end of telop and the end of hybrid, not the point at which they come to rest.

G22 however is not time-limited, and thus can occur at any point during the match. So the question is, is "the pause" part of the match?

There are two possible interpretations... one that since 7.1.1 states the match is 2:15 long, and hybrid is :15 and telop 2:00, that "the pause" is not part of the match. However 7.1.1 also states the robots continue to play until telop is over. If the robots are playing, then they can be penalized, even if they are not allowed to score, simply because that is what the rules say.

In a case of an ambiguity like this, it is reasonable to assume that the field officials would do their best to interpret the rule in the spirit of the game. The spirit of the game clearly includes that the robots should move counter-clockwise about the field, at all times, including hybrid. I would, of course, defer to the judgement of the refs should this occur during a match, but based on what the rules say it would be quite reasonable to assume that it was the intent of the GDC that the robot travelling in the "wrong" direction be penalized.

Jason

Edit: Illustrative Examples from Other Sports: Consider a hockey game. A hockey game consists of three 20 minute periods. At the end of the first period a player shoots the puck towards the opponents goal. The buzzer sounds. The puck coasts across the goal line. No goal as it occurred after the period ended (similar to Overdrive robot scoring). The player, disappointed, gets in a fight, and is penalized by the referee despite the fact that the penalty did not occur during one of the three 20 minute periods. A similar thing occurs in basketball, except the rules specifically state that a ball in motion, but released before the buzzer, scores (similar to Overdrive ball scoring). If the player gets in a fight at half time, they are still penalized. In fact in pretty much every sport players are responsible for following the rules of the game during "pauses", even though they are not generally allowed to score during those periods. While these precedents are not binding on FRC, they do offer guidance in how to interpet the pause between Hybrid and Telop.