GP? I think not.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Woody1458

Jim I'm sorry to be so frank but pretty much everything you described in the way you team is run is what I work so hard to keep from happening to my team.

This year at the Florida Regional, Jim's team was selected as the winner of the Regional Chairman's Award.

Originally Posted by The Manual, Section 5, Awards

The Chairman's Award represents the spirit of FIRST. It honors the team that, in the judges’ estimation, best represents a model for other teams to emulate, and which embodies the goals and purpose of FIRST.

It's too bad that what you see as negatives, are what FIRST celebrates and encourages. I'm not saying you need to change your ways, but perhaps take some time to think about the model presented by Team 1523.

[DanTod97]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Um, no. FIRST encourages mentors to show students what engineering is and how rewarding it can be. FIRST encourages teams to establish ways for students to be inspired by what is possible.

But its not at all about actualy learning how to do it?

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Oh, that's easy. The I in FIRST stands for Inspiration. Are you not inspired by a well-designed, well-engineered, well-built, effective, game-winning machine?

Of course I am, we decided that those two subjects are completely seperate though (montor built robots and winning robots), and I beleive there are ways you can inspire someone with an excelent robot. (more in other thread if you want to continue that)

[E. Wood]

On the note of learning i would like to point something out. As a college student, i do a lot of watching and alot of learning. As a matter of fact this summer I have an internship with an engineering company, which involves just following engineers around and watching them work and doing a little bit of work myself. This summer I will learn many things just by watching and some things by doing. My point is that while it may not be ideal, students can learn just by watching. Ideally, a student will watch first and do second. Think about it. In school the teachers always shows you how to do it first and then sets you lose to try it on your own.

[DanTod97]

Originally Posted by Karthik

It's too bad that what you see as negatives, are what FIRST celebrates and encourages. I'm not saying you need to change your ways, but perhaps take some time to think about the model presented by Team 1523.

I dont think he was attacking the entire way the team is run, just the specific things Jim described, which specifically had to do with the way mentors treat the build-time

[DanTod97]

Originally Posted by E. Wood

On the note of learning i would like to point something out. As a college student, i do a lot of watching and alot of learning. As a matter of fact this summer I have an internship with an engineering company, which involves just following engineers around and watching them work and doing a little bit of work myself. This summer I will learn many things just by watching and some things by doing. My point is that while it may not be ideal, students can learn just by watching. Ideally, a student will watch first and do second. Think about it. In school the teachers always shows you how to do it first and then sets you lose to try it on your own.

Well as long as that "doing" part actually gets fully in there one way or another.

[Woody1458]

posters remorse

[James Mullenax]

I have been with team 1629 since the team has been started... i was reading over these comments and i will agree... just because you see what is going on in the most hecktic times at the comps DOES NOT mean that the robots are completly mentor built. this just means that the mentors can fix the problem quicker because they are more experianced... if your arm, shooter, claw etc. breaks between a match you only have a few mins to get it up and running again... its a compitition no one likes to lose but i dont believe anyone has gone undefeated forever we all lose which means no team is COMPLETELY dominate no matter who works on the robot for instance (not saying they are mentor built just avery good robot!) we competed against team 1024 a GREAT robot they won i think 3 regionals BUT our alliance did beat them in our first match again EVERY TEAM IS BEATABLE ITS A LEARNING EXPERIANCE

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Woody1458

Mr Anderson I have had respect for your posts in the past, and I do believe you a great man. However the idea that your local school has a FIRST team so that you and your adult buddies can build robots and show them to students is absolutely ridiculous. There are plenty of engineering competitions out there designed towards adult involvement. Innovate or Die, ROBOGAMES http://robogames.net/ to name a few. Go join one of them and allow us to participate in one of the few HS targeted competitions available. Do you honestly think wining these competitions has anything to do with anything? If FIRST could give us a pill that taught us engineering and inspired us in science I'm sure they would save their money and just do that. If there are any students reading this thread who have a team that works like this talk to your mentors! There is a better, more fun way! You don't have to sit back and do nothing. I can tell you its more exciting to see your design fail then to see your mentor's work. There is a better way.

I recommend you talk to some of the students that have been Technokats before you tell Mr. Anderson what is right and wrong. I am sure that if you PM Kyle Love or Eric Schnabel (sn Schnabel) or any of the other Technokats active on CD they will be happy to talk to you about their experiences with the team.

I have never met anyone, mentor or student from 45, but I really hope to run across a few of both in future.

[E. Wood]

The "doing" part can be many different things. It does not have to be the actual building of the robot or fixing the robot at competition even though once agian this is ideal. The 'doing' part really is just using the knowledge you have gained through the experince.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

I dont think he was attacking the entire way the team is run, just the specific things Jim described, which specifically had to do with the way mentors treat the build-time

Which is part of how the team is run...

I'm actually inclined to agree with both.

Jim is right--it's not reasonable to expect a high school student to do college-level or post-grad work. That said, there are high schoolers who do college-level work. So Woody has a point there...and I myself have designed a system using basic trig.

But Woody seems to be describing a team without any mentors. Jim is describing a team with many. (Note: this is an assumption based on the respective posts.) So which is right? Both.

The ideal team is a balance between the two. Students who don't know the concept/math/whatever that the mentors do are taught what the mentors know and then apply that knowledge. My first introduction to integral calculus came before I learned about differential calculus. One of the programmers taught me the basic method while he worked out a problem.

I defintietly agree with this statement, though:

Originally Posted by Woody

Team students should keep in mind that we are there to learn from the Mentors, not dictate to them. Share you calculations and concerns with the team mentors. One of the mentors may just blindside you with brilliance when it comes to a simple solution.

Mentors should also remember: we are there to teach, not to dictate. Share your calculations with students and answer any questions they have. Students can have brilliant solutions too. Be ready to learn from them.

I remember a case where I came up with a solution to a problem, but a mentor simplified the solution. I also did a design for another mentor who had built a prototype but didn't know how to do it in Inventor. So it can go both ways.

In ideal reality, there should be no mentor/student debate. It should be that a team builds the robot, a team made up of both students and mentors, equal treatment and authority. Unfortunately, reality isn't ideal, so we have this debate.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Woody1458

You can have your play time, after us. You've had your education let us have ours. Jim I'm sorry to be so frank but pretty much everything you described in the way you team is run is what I work so hard to keep from happening to my team.

Originally Posted by DanTod97

I dont think he was attacking the entire way the team is run, just the specific things Jim described, which specifically had to do with the way mentors treat the build-time

Originally Posted by Woody1458

Mr Anderson I have had respect for your posts in the past, and I do believe you a great man. However the idea that your local school has a FIRST team so that you and your adult buddies can build robots and show them to students is absolutely ridiculous. There are plenty of engineering competitions out there designed towards adult involvement. Innovate or Die, ROBOGAMES http://robogames.net/ to name a few. Go join one of them and allow us to participate in one of the few HS targeted competitions available. Do you honestly think wining these competitions has anything to do with anything? If FIRST could give us a pill that taught us engineering and inspired us in science I'm sure they would save their money and just do that. If there are any students reading this thread who have a team that works like this talk to your mentors! There is a better, more fun way! You don't have to sit back and do nothing. I can tell you its more exciting to see your design fail then to see your mentor's work. There is a better way.

Now just stop. Alan is indeed a great man, and one of my heroes. I suggest you do 3 things at this point:

1. Realize who you are talking to. You are already insulted 1523 (a Regional CA team from this year), and now a 17-year FIRST team who has done a thing here and there for FIRST.
2. Go back and read this thread: Pay special attention to posts #7 and #10, and then read from there. My reply on that thread will probably be overshadowed by Alan's reply here, as he is more of a tactful and articulate than I am.
3. Re-read this thread, and start listening to what others are trying to say to you.

I'll tell you this... if you think that FIRST mentors should shut up, step back, or go away, you are in the minority.

Heed well your words.

Andy Baker

[James Mullenax]

woody1458... just because a mentor wnats to build an excellent robot doesnt want to DESTROY the competition. 99% of the time the students come up with the design and the mentors help make it work "using the experiance they have" i will agree i believe that you are in no position to be "attacking" the ways other teams produce a robot if a mentor helps biult it so what the students had to strive to get mentor and sponsor help to make these team possible

[DanTod97]

Originally Posted by James Mullenax

I have been with team 1629 since the team has been started... i was reading over these comments and i will agree... just because you see what is going on in the most hecktic times at the comps DOES NOT mean that the robots are completly mentor built. this just means that the mentors can fix the problem quicker because they are more experianced... if your arm, shooter, claw etc. breaks between a match you only have a few mins to get it up and running again... its a compitition no one likes to lose but i dont believe anyone has gone undefeated forever we all lose which means no team is COMPLETELY dominate no matter who works on the robot for instance (not saying they are mentor built just avery good robot!) we competed against team 1024 a GREAT robot they won i think 3 regionals BUT our alliance did beat them in our first match again EVERY TEAM IS BEATABLE ITS A LEARNING EXPERIANCE

Well I feel if they built it, they would most likely be able to fix it just as quickly with an equal amount of mentor help as before. I also feel these are the moments that are the most fun and where the thick of these great experiences are found. I also understand that there are many scenarios and good reason mentors may be the only ones working on the robot at a specific time, I was just using it as an example, perhaps not the best one.

[Woody1458]

I am sorry. I have overstepped in the way I have phrased my posts. I do not wish to offend anyone, or say that there is a right or wrong way to do something as involved as run a FIRST robotics team. While I do stick to my opinions, I regret the sharp and sometimes insulting terms with witch I have described them. I hope that my words have not detracted your opinion of me my team, or my opinions. Again I am sorry.

[E. Wood]

Originally Posted by EricH

It should be that a team builds the robot, a team made up of both students and mentors, equal treatment and authority.

I agree completely. If only the world was perfect.