Winning Multiple Regionals

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

People have brought up this point of jealousy many times,...

You keep stressing that you aren't jealous, but that just points to something else that you seem to be missing out on. It's not just what you do that should be inspiring you. It's what others do as well. Am I jealous of the Simbots? You bet I am! I don't just want my team to beat them. I want my team to be them.

[DanTod97]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

You keep stressing that you aren't jealous, but that just points to something else that you seem to be missing out on. It's not just what you do that should be inspiring you. It's what others do as well. Am I jealous of the Simbots? You bet I am! I don't just want my team to beat them. I want my team to be them.

But being them, and being an amazing team, doesnt mean you have to win multiple seperate regional competitions in one year.

[cziggy343]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

But being them, and being an amazing team, doesnt mean you have to win multiple seperate regional competitions in one year.

indeed it does... or at least winning one (depending on how you view success)

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

If it was teams that dont normally win going to three differne tones and having an amazing year, then thats a good accomplishment they should be proud of. But there are some teams that they KNOW they are good and they KNOW chances are very high for them to win, and they know theyve had numerous wins in the past, so I dont see why its necessary for them to plan on going to multiple regionals, wiht it being understood chances are very high that they are going to win probably more than one of them.

Synopsis:
If you don't have a "good" robot, you can go to more than one regional.
If you have a "good" robot, you can only go to one regional.

You call this "fair"?

I'm from a team that goes to three regionals every year, yet has never won a single one. If we happened to make a 1114 status dominant robot with a lot of hard work and a lot of luck, and we win our first regional, then we forfeit our right to play in the other two regionals? Or since we didn't have a "history of dominance" we can still compete in the other two regionals?

Honestly, If I had a robot I loved to watched compete, and I knew if I won the first regional, I wouldn't be allowed to compete with it again at the other regionals, I wouldn't try to win. I'd probably make it to the finals and then give up, because I know I could win, but playing again will be a lot more fun than getting a little trophy and ending our season early.

Mike C.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

I believe some well thought out limits can actually benefit devopment, growth, and innovation.

And no FIRST does not absolutely have to be fair, but I think if it is as much as possible without putting harmful limits, it can only add to the fun of the competition.

Ok, I'm going to yet again try to keep this solutions oriented. What types of limits would you like to see (if any other than a 1 regional limit)?

Also so that I add something to the thread, I'm going to share a little anecdote about teams attending multiple regionals. My team attended the MN regional last weekend. There were a number of teams there that had already competed (including 1 that had won and 3 that came close). One such team was Team 93, N.E.W Apple Corps. All weekend their pit was practically empty. There was always a person or two inside to give you a part if you asked (I often wonder if their tool chest is magic). Where were all their students you might ask? They were in other pits working on other robots for practically the entire weekend. I noticed similar behavior from most of the other veteran teams that had already competed. These "powerhouse" teams have much to share and limiting the number of regionals they can attend also limits the number of people they can help and I think that does limit development and growth.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

If it was teams that dont normally win going to three differne tones and having an amazing year, then thats a good accomplishment they should be proud of. But there are some teams that they KNOW they are good and they KNOW chances are very high for them to win, and they know theyve had numerous wins in the past, so I dont see why its necessary for them to plan on going to multiple regionals, wiht it being understood chances are very high that they are going to win probably more than one of them.

Winning two regionals in a year is exceedingly rare. This year 14 teams did (less then 1% of all teams). In fact, there are only two teams that won 2 regionals this year, and also won 2 regionals any time in the previous three years (254 and 1114).

[Dave Scheck]

For the sake of argument, let's say that you do limit dominant teams to one regional. Who does this hurt?

1. The students on that team. Why should they be denied the opportunity to get just as much inspiration as those on other teams?

2. The students on non-dominant teams. Those student would all of a sudden not be able to benefit from the help of the dominant teams. They would never be given the jump start that they need to better themselves and their team.

3. The students on all other teams. When a team comes up with something innovative, everyone in the program should have the right to see it up close and in person.

4. FIRST itself. Something special happens when more than one dominant team is on the field. The game is played as it is supposed to be played, and the matches become extremely exciting. Teams (dominant or not) will play to the level that they need to in order to win. When playing against someone that's better than you (in anything), you inherently make yourself better. This is just a fact of life. Ratcheting this bar up year after year benefits everyone. Imagine a person off the street walking in and seeing 6 boxes on wheels spinning in circles. Personally I'd be pretty bored and would give up on it quickly.

5. The mentors on all teams. I can't think of a single mentor that has shared the opinion that you bring up in my 7 years in FIRST. Most mentors thrive on being able to see cool designs brought forth by dominant teams. Why? Because cool designs are inspirational and key to making your own designs better.

The list can probably go on and on.

A lot has been said in this thread and I don't want to rehash anything, but take a deep breath and think about it from all perspectives. Successful teams are needed for any sporting event to work. Successful teams are needed in FIRST to better everyone. Limiting or diminishing their roles is both disrespectful to the team and detrimental to the program.

[DanTod97]

Originally Posted by Dave Scheck

For the sake of argument, let's say that you do limit dominant teams to one regional. Who does this hurt?

1. The students on that team. Why should they be denied the opportunity to get just as much inspiration as those on other teams?

2. The students on non-dominant teams. Those student would all of a sudden not be able to benefit from the help of the dominant teams. They would never be given the jump start that they need to better themselves and their team.

3. The students on all other teams. When a team comes up with something innovative, everyone in the program should have the right to see it up close and in person.

1. I dont see how winnig multiple regionals is needed for inspiration to take place.

2. There are planty of other teams that can help at any given regionals, they dont have to have already won one.

3. Either way everyone is not going to see every robot, nor do they need to.

Originally Posted by Dave Scheck

4. FIRST itself. Something special happens when more than one dominant team is on the field. The game is played as it is supposed to be played, and the matches become extremely exciting. Teams (dominant or not) will play to the level that they need to in order to win. When playing against someone that's better than you (in anything), you inherently make yourself better. This is just a fact of life. Ratcheting this bar up year after year benefits everyone. Imagine a person off the street walking in and seeing 6 boxes on wheels spinning in circles. Personally I'd be pretty bored and would give up on it quickly.

Im not saying teams shouldnt play teams they are better than, they jsut dont need to go to and win multiple regionals.

Originally Posted by Dave Scheck

5. The mentors on all teams. I can't think of a single mentor that has shared the opinion that you bring up in my 7 years in FIRST. Most mentors thrive on being able to see cool designs brought forth by dominant teams. Why? Because cool designs are inspirational and key to making your own designs better.

Even with teams not going to different regionals, im sure there are plenty of cool designs at each competition for the mentors to see.

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

If it was teams that dont normally win going to three differne tones and having an amazing year, then thats a good accomplishment they should be proud of. But there are some teams that they KNOW they are good and they KNOW chances are very high for them to win, and they know theyve had numerous wins in the past, so I dont see why its necessary for them to plan on going to multiple regionals, wiht it being understood chances are very high that they are going to win probably more than one of them.

So a team is supposed to evaluate whether or not they are 'good'?

"Hey guys, I think we're pretty awesome this year. We'll probably win everything. Let's just not go to another regional since we're going to dominate anyway, okay?"

The truth is that NO team - I don't care how long they've been in the competition or how well they've done during their tenure - knows what is going to happen until they put their robot on the field for the first time at their first event. How egotistical and selfish do you take these teams to be?

Out of the list of robots that has been quoted over and over here as being some of the elite teams in FIRST, I can name a season for each of them where their robot was mediocre or sub-par. That's just how it works. Nobody can be 'on', all of the time. The repeat years you're talking about where a team may win more than one regional or where a team wins Championship more than once is luck and ingenuity - it takes practice, it takes time, and it takes a group of students who are willing to really work to make it happen.

Originally Posted by DanTod97

and THANK YOU to all those who give me bad rep for a having a different opinion than yours, very, very nice. love it.

No problem. It's not judging your opinion - you've long passed the line of what could be considered your opinion. Your logic is flawed. Your logic is what they're neg repping - because you've contradicted yourself repeatedly, argued the fine points of what has been beaten to death previously, and made your team look like sore losers (regardless of whether you mention them in these threads, you're representing them on this forum whether you like it or not).

If a student of mine came up to me and expressed these opinions, we'd have a long talk together about why they are in the FIRST program, what it means to them, and what they hope to accomplish while on the team. We'd talk about what it means to be a gracious competitor and how to act professionally both on and off the field.

Here's the point - everyone seeks inspiration in different ways. It appears that FIRST is not giving you the inspiration you seek, based on the opinions and logic you have attempted to express here. Walk away from the keyboard, sit down, and think about what you've said and what others have said before you post again. Posting from emotion is getting you little to nowhere, and giving people a negative impression of whom I'm sure you are. Yes, you have points. Yes, we understand them. However, in trying to talk to you about them, you're throwing up defenses.

Think about what I said. And if you have nobody to talk to about the conversation I detailed above, I'd be happy to give you a call and let you vent. Really.

[DanTod97]

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

No problem. It's not judging your opinion - you've long passed the line of what could be considered your opinion. Your logic is flawed. Your logic is what they're neg repping - because you've contradicted yourself repeatedly, argued the fine points of what has been beaten to death previously, and made your team look like sore losers (regardless of whether you mention them in these threads, you're representing them on this forum whether you like it or not).

I completely disagree with this and am going to take it as an insult because thats clearly what it was meant for.

[Brandon Martus]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

I completely disagree with this and am going to take it as an insult because thats clearly what it was meant for.

And that calls for this thread to be closed too. It will re-open once people have a chance to read all of the responses, gather their thoughts, and come up with some new content to add to the discussion.

Let's keep the discussion of this topic in this thread .. so please do not create another thread to talk about winning multiple regionals.

Moderators: unlock no earlier than Sunday, please.