GP? I think not.

[DanTod97]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

Oh, and I'd like to repeat Karthik's call for anyone to name me a robot that is 100% mentor-built. I don't think they exist, but I could be wrong.

I dont think 100% student built robots exist either, but if they do, it would be alot more impresive to me then a 100% mentor built robot.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

I want to make it clear that I am not arguing that if a student does not have anyone to teach them they will learn. What I am arguing is that If that teacher does most of the work for them, that they will not. (or atleast not as much)

And I say what does that matter? If the students in question are inspired to pursue a career in science or technology, then hasn't the program fulfilled its goals? Remember, the competition is a means to a end.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Weis

I've seen some robots that I'm sure highschoolers could not have built by themselves. I don't know from talking to their mentors but I have eyes and they seem to be fairly reliable at this point. As for *all* of the work... that I can't say for sure but I would say that their mentors did some serious work.

Appearances can be deceiving. The 254/968 bots look like they were designed and built by a team of NASA engineers (not at all the case as stated previously in this thread) while many robots that have teams of mentors look like garbage.

Your eyes observing a robot are not a reliable indicator of that team's makeup or organization.

[Weis]

[quote=AdamHeard;730544]Wow, you seriously underestimate what a high schooler can do with a good mentor to help and guide them. Also, isn't that part of the point? For high schoolers to do things they "could not have" by themselves? QUOTE]

I'm not saying that if high schoolers receive help it's bad. There are some robots though that make me wonder how much work the high schoolers really did or if they even helped with the design at all.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

I dont think 100% student built robots exist either, but if they do, it would be alot more impresive to me then a 100% mentor built robot.

You would really like the BEST program.
It isn't 100% but it is closer to your vision of a robot build/competition.

A wise person once said there are many different trees in the forest. FIRST may not be the tree that fits what you envision, BEST might be a closer fit. I don't think there is BEST in MA - but hey, you could make it grow.

[AdamHeard]

Weis, why not go talk to one of those students that was active on the team about it?

We can speculate all we want, but nothing can replace actually talking to those teams.

Originally Posted by DanTod97

I dont think 100% student built robots exist either, but if they do, it would be alot more impresive to me then a 100% mentor built robot.

there are plenty of 100% student built robots. There would have to be as I have run into many teams with no mentors and just a teacher/advisor who really can't doesn't help with the robot.

Now, I've worked with teams like these; despite winning the coveted DanTod97 impression award, they were generally very unhappy with their FIRST experience and weren't very much, if at all.

Now, I've also worked with kids on 294 (and formerly was one) who worked alongside real engineers (students still did most of the design, not without mentor help though), and were introduced to lots of actual industry at Northrop Grumman. Through the team students have been given internships at NG, and this has lead many to pursue math, science and engineering as a career path.

So, please, please tell me why the students on this team are less impressive?

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

I dont think 100% student built robots exist either, but if they do, it would be alot more impresive to me then a 100% mentor built robot.

I saw one right next door to me in the pits at MN. It was decent, but definitely not impressive. The students were also not having a very good time as their software didn't work right and they had gotten it from another local team that wrote their own custom libraries (likely because they didn't have a software mentor to help them write their own code).

[DanTod97]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

And I say what does that matter? If the students in question are inspired to pursue a career in science or technology, then hasn't the program fulfilled its goals? Remember, the competition is a means to a end.

So FIRST is only allowed to have the one single effect of inspiration? Wouldnt it be great if learning was integrated with the inspiration so they have a head start for their aspiring careers?

[DanTod97]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

I saw one right next door to me in the pits at MN. It was decent, but definitely not impressive. The students were also not having a very good time as their software didn't work right and they had gotten it from another local team that wrote their own custom libraries (likely because they didn't have a software mentor to help them write their own code).

Thats a pretty negative attitude. But yes of course they could have done better with mentor help, which is why I said before "I want to make it clear that I am not arguing that if a student does not have anyone to teach them they will learn."

[Weis]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Weis, why not go talk to one of those students that was active on the team about it?

We can speculate all we want, but nothing can replace actually talking to those teams.

Because a student on the team is not going to tell me that their mentors did all of the work. Might the conversation go...
Weis says, "Excuse me guy, did you have mentors build your whole robot?"
To which Brandon McStudentson replies, "Not all of it, Dave put on that zip tie and Fidel but on that screw."
surprised Weis says, "Oh, my mistake"

Don't be naive or offended. I was just making a point.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

Nit-pick: lots of people on this thread keep talking about "learning". I'm all for the students learning through this program, but that is not a goal of FIRST (really!). If you don't believe me, please cite a specific source from FIRST that says anything about FIRST's objective being to "teach". I'm pretty sure it's not there. As others have pointed out, FIRST's material only talks about inspiration.

This is a valid point, so I'll (respectfully) nit-pick back. In my opinion, I believe that learning and inspiration in the realm of FIRST come full circle to each other, at least during the build season.

I do believe mentors can be inspired by students just as much as the other way around. The more students learn the higher chance they'll have in inspiring their mentors and other students because there will inherently be more avenues to take on the way to doing so. I (and I don't think I'm alone here) would really love to see a student-driven idea on a bot much more than I'd like to see a mentor-based idea, even if the student's idea is mentor designed and cooperatively built. This coincides with building student self-confidence (which stems from inspiration) which leads to students trusting their own ideas and creativity. However, if the students have learned more already by having mentors teach (and/or inspire) them, then there is a much greater chance that a student-driven idea will have greater success in a bot on the competition field. Many of the interviews with Woody or Dean have stated some of these exact words, so while learning may not be an "official" cited goal of FIRST I do believe it is a goal nonetheless.

And on a more fun note... the more students know, the less likely their ideas will fight the universe or require the *poof* from a magic wand.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Weis

Because a student on the team is not going to tell me that their mentors did all of the work. Might the conversation go...
Weis says, "Excuse me guy, did you have mentors build your whole robot?"
To which Brandon McStudentson replies, "Not all of it, Dave put on that zip tie and Fidel but on that screw."
surprised Weis says, "Oh, my mistake"

Don't be naive or offended. I was just making a point.

Wow.... If that wasn't completely made up, I don't know what is....

EVERY single powerhouse team I at one time suspected of being mentor (I'll be the first to admit I was immature, jealous and naive once. Well, at 19 can't say I'm not anymore, but I'm better) built had proven me wrong.

I went to their pit, to their team, wherever and talked to them for a bit. Sure, at first you may not get the student that worked his $@#$@#$@# off who is a bit bitter and claim students did nothing.... but you will ALLWAYS be able to find the student(s) on these teams that can tell you everything about the robot 'cause they worked their $@#$@#$@# off alongside engineers to build the best and learn the most. Also, coming up and asking that is a far to accusational tone to get a positive response.

I can't make it to championships this year because of class, but how about at championships 2009 or IRI this season you and me take a walk around the pits and talk to some teams? I'll buy you a dozen krispie kremes/cases of dew for each team that is mentor built and you can buy me one for each 25 that aren't. I'll still end up with more donuts and dew.

[jacob07]

Originally Posted by DanTod97

I dont think 100% student built robots exist either, but if they do, it would be alot more impresive to me then a 100% mentor built robot.

Our robot isn't 100% student built, but its close to 95%. The only thing that the students didn't work on were the newer kids learning how to weld, use our mill, and the lathe. But after they learned, they were able to do most of the work. Also bending some of the 1" sq. tubing, in that instance, most of them weren't strong enough to do it. Thats just my team though

[Brandon Martus]

This thread has grown very quickly .. let's let people read all the posts .. gather their thoughts, think about it, and then we'll unlock it later this weekend or Monday morning.

Let's keep the discussion of this topic in this thread .. so please do not create another thread to talk about student vs mentor built robots.

Moderators: unlock no earlier than Sunday, please.