Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball

[Weis]

One of the teams that is mentored by us (Purdue FIRST Programs) had a cornering strategy that messed up, but ended up working wonders. We tried to ram one of the other team's trackballs away from them, and managed to knock it off of the field and down the aisle. It wasn't intentional, but it worked pretty well.

[s_forbes]

(Changing the line violation to work like that would allow people to go backwards and remove balls from the overpass behind them, which isn't allowed by the current rule. This may be why it hasn't been modified as everyone has suggested.)

But back on to the topic of cornering trackballs: it seems to me that this is something that was originally anticipated by the game designers, hence the lack of a rule to prevent it. But remember, if you pin both of your opponent's balls with two of your alliances' robots, you effectively have only one robot on the field that is doing anything. The other alliance has three teams that can all run laps while their trackballs are pinned, which will still get them a substantial amount of points!

Unfortunately for the defensive bots, this years game doesn't offer much of an endgame bonus (as compared to 06 and 07), so it is hard to play defense the entire match and pull out a win.

[riskkeeper205]

well i dono about that cuz if u hav a decent hurdler then the 3 oponents get 6 pts for every 10 ur team gets (8 for the hurdle and 2 for the lap) and if they can put one ball up at the end then ur alliance is pretty well off. the only flaw is if the oposing 3 alliance robots are a lot faster than ur hurdler, but other than that if u corner all the oponents track balls ur pretty well off.



although another thing that could mess u up is the hybrid mode. if the other alliance puts u in a big enough hole in the first 15 sec then u ll have to hav 2 hurdlers and defend only one of the oponent's track balls.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by riskkeeper205

well i dono about that cuz if u hav a decent hurdler then the 3 oponents get 6 pts for every 10 ur team gets (8 for the hurdle and 2 for the lap) and if they can put one ball up at the end then ur alliance is pretty well off. the only flaw is if the oposing 3 alliance robots are a lot faster than ur hurdler, but other than that if u corner all the oponents track balls ur pretty well off.

Forgive me for sounding like either an old guy or -- even worse -- an English teacher, but this isn't a cell phone or a chat forum. You're not in that much of a hurry, and could certainly find the time to type "your," "you," "because," "have," "opponents," "opposing," and "don't know." Using the "shift" key does not take any extra time, either. Doing things correctly is important in both robots AND language.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Forgive me for sounding like either an old guy or -- even worse -- an English teacher, but this isn't a cell phone or a chat forum. You're not in that much of a hurry, and could certainly find the time to type "your," "you," "because," "have," "opponents," "opposing," and "don't know." Using the "shift" key does not take any extra time, either. Doing things correctly is important in both robots AND language.

I'm another fogey who skips reading those kind of posts, rather than trying to decipher them.

[riskkeeper205]

Alright I'm sorry i will make sure to write correctly in the future. Thank you for telling me though so I can make that change.

[Shadow503]

Originally Posted by s_forbes

. . .
But back on to the topic of cornering trackballs: it seems to me that this is something that was originally anticipated by the game designers, hence the lack of a rule to prevent it.

I'm not sure I follow your logic there. Are you suggesting that they would not have originally anticipated cornering of track balls if they did make a rule to prevent it?

Originally Posted by s_forbes

But remember, if you pin both of your opponent's balls with two of your alliances' robots, you effectively have only one robot on the field that is doing anything. The other alliance has three teams that can all run laps while their trackballs are pinned, which will still get them a substantial amount of points!

Unfortunately for the defensive bots, this years game doesn't offer much of an endgame bonus (as compared to 06 and 07), so it is hard to play defense the entire match and pull out a win.

It still seems against the intent of the game. Do you really believe Woody Flowers intended four robots to be pinning track balls up against a wall while the two remaining robots run laps?

I'm not sure I buy all this "defensive bot" talk. It seems these robots are simply bots that are not capable of doing anything else. Anyone can slap a drive train on a control board and create a "defensive bot". If one has a robot that can not hurdle/herd and is not even fast enough run laps the appropriate term is box bot.

I believe this is why the game creators put such little value in defense this year. They want to encourage teams build a robot to actually play the game. They don't want teams to put together some robot that can be thrown into any game and called a "defensive bot". They want us to put some real thought in to our bots. They want us to truly engineer a unique piece of machinery. They want us to craft arms for hurdling. They want us to design complex shooters to launch the ball over the overpass. They want us to build grippers to quickly retrieve the track ball. They want us to engineer speedy drive trains to rack up laps.

They don't want us throwing wheels on an iron frame and pinning track balls in the corner.

Come on people, lets play the game!

[s_forbes]

Originally Posted by Shadow503

I'm not sure I follow your logic there. Are you suggesting that they would not have originally anticipated cornering of track balls if they did make a rule to prevent it?

Heh, I meant that they had thought of it and decided not to make a rule against it. The GDC thinks of everything, you know!


As for whether or not the defense belongs in the game, it's obvious that the GDC was trying to encourage teams to build offensive robots this year (which is why all of these darn penalties are required...), but there are always going to be teams that cannot complete the task and end up with a half-done robot that can't run fast laps or hurdle the ball. I think this was anticipated, and so no rules were made to stop these teams from intercepting/playing keep away with the other alliance's trackballs. But with the way the scoring works, there isn't a good chance for a team to win with this type of defensive strategy.

(As a side note, I used to be way against defense, especially after Rack'n'Roll. Now I see that it is just another part of the challenge. Don't fight it, just overcome it with a better robot. )

[Valley Raider]

Originally Posted by Dolan

you could have one of your team bump them to counter the counter

thats doesn't work, the penalty is charged to the bot that is causing the back up not the one that is trying to pass.

[Shadow503]

Originally Posted by s_forbes

As for whether or not the defense belongs in the game, it's obvious that the GDC was trying to encourage teams to build offensive robots this year (which is why all of these darn penalties are required...), but there are always going to be teams that cannot complete the task and end up with a half-done robot that can't run fast laps or hurdle the ball. I think this was anticipated, and so no rules were made to stop these teams from intercepting/playing keep away with the other alliance's trackballs. But with the way the scoring works, there isn't a good chance for a team to win with this type of defensive strategy.

I guess this is where our opinions split. I believe a team with a half-done robot should not be able to effectively compete.

Teams like us have spent too many hours building a powerful bot to have our scoring potential neutralized by a half-done box bot ("defensive bot"). The game creators intended to reduce pinning. This can be found by the lack of any 90 degree corners in the track. Unfortunately, teams are still able to pin a ball.

I've done the math and I have a counter pinning strategy: high speed ramming. If I can get our 120lb bot moving at 20 ft/s we should be able to disable/dislodge the defensive bot/track ball. A single lap w/ hurdle will be sufficient to cover 10pt penalty. After this, one of four things happens:
A) The defensive robot has been damaged and is no longer able to play defense
B) The defensive robot is still working, but we are able to keep control of the ball
C) The defensive robot, while still working, has realized it is in their best interests to not pin the ball
D) The defensive robot, still working, pins the ball after we come around the track again. We repeat the ramming maneuver and hurdle (with no net point loss) and hope for conditions A),B), or C) next time around.

Most defense bots are weak KOP bots, so I have a feeling condition is A) is the likely outcome.

Yes, it might not be the most GP solution, but neither is pinning. Pinning was not in the intent of the game creators and promotes laziness in bot design and construction. Pinning will lead to boring, low scoring matches. I intend to change that. I encourage other teams with competitive robots to do the same to keep this years game interesting.

See you at Nationals!

[Paul Copioli]

Shadow503,

You must not be playing the same game we are. As a team subjected to quite a lot of defense, there are some fully complete robots that have an excellent drive train and a decent shooter that can play some mean defense against that ball.

I watched every single one of our GLR matches on video and we had single, and sometimes double, defense against us in every match except 1 but we managed to play through it.

The ability to play through defense is key in almost every FIRST game, so I suggest you figure out how to play through it because camplaining about it isn't going to make it go away.

-Paul

[SL8]

I don't think its fair to say that most defensive robots are half done or weak KOP robots. Even if they are, you have to remember that it takes more than a well built robot or good programming and design. Put that on the field and the robot might perform half decent. Put a good driver who has had practice and it should do phenomenal. So even if a half done robot is blocking your way, think about this, why is it able to do so?

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

I watched every single one of our GLR matches on video and we had single, and sometimes double, defense against us in every match except 1 but we managed to play through it.

The ability to play through defense is key in almost every FIRST game, so I suggest you figure out how to play through it because camplaining about it isn't going to make it go away.

Great point, Paul. Ever since our FTC tournament in late February I've wondering why 575 didn't do better. Of the three robots our program fielded, they had by far the highest scoring potential, and worked perfectly every minute of every match. It was the only one of our three 'bots that didn't have some sort of mechanical problem during the event, and yet it finished qualifying ranked in the teens (out of 28), and only dominated a couple of matches. This week I finally got the video from the mentor who was shooting our matches and watched the entire thing. In every single match after the first, 575s opposition keyed on them. No matter what they were trying to do, there was an opposition 'bot trying to stop them.

417 finished ranked first after quals, using a lower-scoring strategy than 575s, but one that was much more difficult to block. 417 was ranked first after qualifications. By using a pretty-good strategy that was hard to stop they ended up being more effective than the high-potential, but easier-to-block 575. One more thing to add to my mentor's "strategic concerns to go over with the teams" list. If you build a good robot, the opposition will focus on stopping you -- even to the extent of abandoning their own scoring.

A good robot can score a lot of points. A great robot can do it when the other alliance does everything they can to stop it.

[Herodotus]

I don't see why people keep saying things like "It's not what the GDC intended." The truth is it doesn't matter what the GDC intended, they wrote rules, and we are to follow those rules. Anything that falls within those rules is a valid strategy. Our job is to play the game that the GDC gave us, not the one we think they should have given us.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Herodotus

I don't see why people keep saying things like "It's not what the GDC intended." The truth is it doesn't matter what the GDC intended, they wrote rules, and we are to follow those rules. Anything that falls within those rules is a valid strategy. Our job is to play the game that the GDC gave us, not the one we think they should have given us.

Exactly. I also think that we don't really know the 'real intent' of the rules. By saying 'that goes against the intent of the rules and thus shouldn't be done', is almost like saying 'the protection of hurlders goes against the intent of the rules, so I'm not going to follow that rule'. It doesn't matter what people think the 'intent of the rules' is, we have the play the game that was given to us and not make our own inteprentations and intents.