[FTC]: Technical Question

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by GeorgeTheEng

Hmm, honestly I disagree with this. Engineering isn't about reinventing the wheel. It's about doing things effectively, efficiently, and with the best design to meet the needs.

My feeling is that if it meets the needs and it is cost effective then use it. Spend the time you would have done making another part of the robot better, developing better code to control the arm, or working on more sophisticated strategies.

Most highly complex systems are currently build from a majority of of off the shelf parts with a minimal amount of custom parts and software to tie it together.

Using it and figuring out to best use it are two different skills.

You really think that? If so, then why are there huge arguments about Gracious Professionalism and about mentor/engineer built robots? If its made ina factory should you be allowed to use it? Would you use a prebuilt arm for FRC if you were allowed to? And if yes (unless you can't afford to build your own) then I think that that's really just sad.

Also, what if a team can't buy the VEXplorer kit due to a small budget such as most FVC teams? Frankly, I don't see why using it should be allowed. I'm with fredliu on this one.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by lilstogi11

Also, what if a team can't buy the VEXplorer kit due to a small budget such as most FVC teams? Frankly, I don't see why using it should be allowed. I'm with fredliu on this one.

A set of small omnis is $20 -- the same as the claw. Let's ban those. Let's also ban the large omnis($25), the shaft encoders ($20), extra servos and motors ($20 each), aluminum parts ($100), rack and pinion gears ($30), tank treads ($30), the tank tread upgrade kit ($25), extra wheels ($30), chains and sprockets ($30), the larger chassis kits ($21 to $34) and the ultrasonic range finder ($30). Allowing the use of these extra parts is not fair to the teams that cannot afford them, either -- and they cost the same as or more than the claw. I don't know why you are picking and choosing what should and should not be legal?

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by lilstogi11

You really think that? If so, then why are there huge arguments about Gracious Professionalism and about mentor/engineer built robots?

Good question, one probably for another thread.

If its made ina factory should you be allowed to use it? Would you use a prebuilt arm for FRC if you were allowed to?

Depends--would it meet our needs better than the alternative of building our own?

And if yes (unless you can't afford to build your own) then I think that that's really just sad.

To each their own.

Also, what if a team can't buy the VEXplorer kit due to a small budget such as most FVC teams? Frankly, I don't see why using it should be allowed. I'm with fredliu on this one.

Rick beat me to it.

[fredliu168]

uhh sorry guys for the misunderstanding. I'm mentoring VEN's team. The reason I said not to use the claw was because I didn't think it would work well given the design of our robot.

[Akash Rastogi]

yea but its pre-made. That's really the only thing that bugs me. We didn't use it because we thought it would make other teams mad or something, so its not that I didn't consider it either. But yea, i see your point and I'm sorry for sounding a bit rash on that. its not like i'm going around sayng "no" to people who used it and giving them negative rep. or anything. Just saying that it seems kind of unethical.

But in this case..yea "to each his own."

[Overyourhead]

yea but its pre-made. That's really the only thing that bugs me. We didn't use it because we thought it would make other teams mad or something, so its not that I didn't consider it either. But yea, i see your point and I'm sorry for sounding a bit rash on that. its not like i'm going around sayng "no" to people who used it and giving them negative rep. or anything. Just saying that it seems kind of unethical.

I 100% agree. I understand that it is not illegal to use it. I just feel that it's a cop out because of the fact that it's so much pre-made. If you are going to use a claw, which I feel is a good idea, build one. Dean Kamen always likes to see innovation. I claw well built will be more innovative rather than just sticking a pre-built think on a fully unique robot.

[Lowfategg]

I love the claw not for being a claw (I would never use it as a claw) but for what you can get out of it. Anyone that went to the New York FTC regional and watched our robot could see some vexplorer claw in use in the beginning of every match.

[Rick TYler]

To each his own... 575 abandoned the claw idea just because it didn't work very well for their design.

[thatguy]

My team used a claw in our robot, but we built it ourselves. It worked pretty well, we used some rubber for gripping. I actually never heard about the VexPlorer arm/claw until a couple of months ago. I learned yesterday at NYC/discovering team 546 on youtube that for what we wanted to do, it was more effective to design a ring stacking system, but in the midst of the competition, we learned that our robot was very good at controlling the hexes, which helped us greatly in the matches, especially when we realized who our best driver was.

From what I have seen, the vexplorer claw looks too big to take control of the hexes and not effective in grabbing pvc rings. But yea, to each his own. It probably just hurts the team on the innovate award.

[GeorgeTheEng]

Originally Posted by lilstogi11

You really think that? If so, then why are there huge arguments about Gracious Professionalism and about mentor/engineer built robots? If its made ina factory should you be allowed to use it? Would you use a prebuilt arm for FRC if you were allowed to? And if yes (unless you can't afford to build your own) then I think that that's really just sad.

Also, what if a team can't buy the VEXplorer kit due to a small budget such as most FVC teams? Frankly, I don't see why using it should be allowed. I'm with fredliu on this one.

I'm not going to get into the argument about GP here. I honestly think that has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. My point wasn't about whether certain parts should or should not be legal. The Vexplorer claw is legal this year. If a team wants to use it because it fits thier design and their constraints, then I think it makes sense.

My point was that all things being legal, if you were develop a design that requires a certain function (I'm dropping the arm so we don't get bogged down in that), and you have a choice between a commercial product that fits your needs and budget or making something yourself that is of equivalent ability, most engineers will go with off the shelf and put effort into other areas where custom parts are required. This argument goes out the window though if you intend to or can develop something that performs better. Or if for some reason you can make it cheaper.

Engineering is a balance between best performance, best cost, and best use of time.

[Abra Cadabra IV]

I saw a couple teams using the VEXplorer claw at the San Diego and Vegas regionals. A LOT of the teams using it were inexperienced rookie teams who didn't have the knowledge, resources, or time to build anything better. It allowed them to function okay, but most of the teams who built custom claws did a better job of grabbing rings. Personally, I think the VEXplorer claw is a great resource for beginning teams, but any other team would be better off building their own.

[bellpride]

I don't have a problem one way or another, but I do admire teams that take the time to build their own claw. Take Vexellent - their claw looks excellent, much more suited to Quad Quandry than the Vexplorer claw, I think. (http://www.vexforum.com/gallery/show...1196&catid=12)