FIRST has $8 Million?!? What did I miss?

[Racer26]

Yeah... $8M really ISNT that much money, and if you really want to think about it... Its pretty amazing that FIRST is running these 40-odd FRC events plus all the FLL and FTC events for just shy of $20M. I'm very certain that some of the regionals (especially the larger ones, like GTR and NYC) cost close to $500,000 if not more to put on. The Hershey Centre (home of our GTR) is a full arena complex used by the Mississauga St Michaels Majors, Ontario Hockey League team as home ice (tickets to such hockey games run about $30-50 a head). GTR rents out the main stadium, and the neighboring community pad for the pits. To do this for 4 days (wednesday setup, plus the 3 day competition) I am certain does not come cheaply.

[Protronie]

Take if from someone that has worked for a non-profit organization.
And was one of the last to leave when it went under.

If I was you I would be very happy and grateful FIRST had such a cash reserve. Yes 8M is a large number but compared to the cost of operations and not knowing what the future might bring... its a drop in the bucket.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

Yeah... $8M really ISNT that much money, and if you really want to think about it... Its pretty amazing that FIRST is running these 40-odd FRC events plus all the FLL and FTC events for just shy of $20M. I'm very certain that some of the regionals (especially the larger ones, like GTR and NYC) cost close to $500,000 if not more to put on. The Hershey Centre (home of our GTR) is a full arena complex used by the Mississauga St Michaels Majors, Ontario Hockey League team as home ice (tickets to such hockey games run about $30-50 a head). GTR rents out the main stadium, and the neighboring community pad for the pits. To do this for 4 days (wednesday setup, plus the 3 day competition) I am certain does not come cheaply.

It's important to realize that FIRST HQ pays little or none of the costs of operating a regional event beyond those associated with the creation and transportation of the field and the staff on hand. Venue rental, A/V, catering, pipe and drape... everything else is almost always funded by sponsorship at the regional level.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

It's important to realize that FIRST HQ pays little or none of the costs of operating a regional event beyond those associated with the creation and transportation of the field and the staff on hand. Venue rental, A/V, catering, pipe and drape... everything else is almost always funded by sponsorship at the regional level.

And note that many (J)FLL and FTC events are run similarly.

Still, for the reasons above, I could see why FIRST would want a fair amount of money in the bank. Running four competitions can't be easy; running four competitions when you're absolutely out of funds until next month when registration opens or a donor's fiscal year rolls over, I imagine, is nigh impossible.

[AndyB]

Madison, that does seem to be the case. I'm pretty certain regionals fund themselves. I have worked closely with some of the Wisconsin Regional Planning Committee members and that seems to be the case there.

If you take into account that not all of the KOP is donated, the Championship is funded by FIRST directly (through sponsorships of course) and the fact that there is money needed to prototype games, keep the headquarters running, pay FIRST employees, send Paul and John to regionals... $8M doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

[TechieSam]

There have been some innacurate assumptions and statements made here. I'm not an accountant, but I have worked on a Regional Planning Committee and do know some of the real answers. I can assure everyone that:

- FIRST does NOT lose money, if they did they would show a loss on the report and they wouldn't have a cash fund in the bank
- The registration fees DO NOT go to pay for the Regional Events for any of the three programs
- The planning committee have to raise every penny for the events
- The cash line people are talking about is the excess funds, if that figure goes up, then they made money that year, if it goes down, they lost money.
- If as someone said, it went up over a million last year, that means FIRST brought in over a million more than they spent
- any non-profit should maintain a reserve of funds. It should be a certain amount and maintain that level plus increase for inflation. If it goes up beyond that, then people should question any fees being collected.

That's my quick comment. I'm going to go look at those annual reports on the web site and see if they show what people are talking about here.

[RobJ]

Originally Posted by TechieSam

- The cash line people are talking about is the excess funds, if that figure goes up, then they made money that year, if it goes down, they lost money.
- If as someone said, it went up over a million last year, that means FIRST brought in over a million more than they spent

It is not only that it went up by a million last year, it has gone up by over a million for the past few years. Look at the report from 2004 or 2005, the cash figure there is in the 4 million range.

[GeorgeTheEng]

Originally Posted by TechieSam

There have been some innacurate assumptions and statements made here. I'm not an accountant, but I have worked on a Regional Planning Committee and do know some of the real answers. I can assure everyone that:

- FIRST does NOT lose money, if they did they would show a loss on the report and they wouldn't have a cash fund in the bank
- The registration fees DO NOT go to pay for the Regional Events for any of the three programs
- The planning committee have to raise every penny for the events

I'd like to add a quick clarification to this. It is true that Regional Events are expected to raise all their own funds. But in the end, the contracts are signed with FIRST as a legal entity, not the Regional committees (who may or may not be their own 501c3 organization). What that means is at the end of the season, FIRST is ultimately responsible for those expenses. Most regionals do a VERY good job of raising there funds, but there are regionals that cannot generate enough sponsorship to completely cover costs. Those bills are still paid.

[Rick TYler]

FIRST's financials are perfectly normal. Their current ratio is 2.9. A business with this ratio would be considered safe and strong. Their equivalent of return on sales is about 9%. All of these numbers would be perfectly normal for a for-profit company and look to me like an organization run by conservative, professional management. There's nothing funny going on, at least from the numbers.

I have a lot more experience evaluating for-profit than not-for-profit corporations, so I can only say that if this were a for-profit I would say it's healthy and not rapacious. The nearly 30% cost of operations is higher than a charitable foundation would be, but strikes me as very reasonable for an organization that delivers a program rather than just gives money away. The Boy Scouts of America, for comparison, with a vastly higher income spends about 10% of its income on operation.

As to secret deals between Lego and FIRST, I eagerly await some credible documentation.

Yes, I do have a degree in business.

[Jared Russell]

Does anyone think that - pragmatically speaking - the registration fee is a blessing in disguise for FIRST?

We all know that FIRST is growing by leaps and bounds each year, and that is WITH a $6000 registration fee. As it is, you sometimes get the feeling that the organization is being stretched too thin.

If the registration fee was less, how many more teams would there be? How would FIRST deal with the need for more infrastructure?

FIRST loves to grow - no doubt about it - and I'd even say that in my opinion they are growing a little too fast.

But the high cost of FIRST is, realistically, the only thing letting the organization mature at a somewhat reasonable rate.

[neoshaakti]

Originally Posted by Abwehr

Does anyone think that - pragmatically speaking - the registration fee is a blessing in disguise for FIRST?

We all know that FIRST is growing by leaps and bounds each year, and that is WITH a $6000 registration fee. As it is, you sometimes get the feeling that the organization is being stretched too thin.

If the registration fee was less, how many more teams would there be? How would FIRST deal with the need for more infrastructure?

FIRST loves to grow - no doubt about it - and I'd even say that in my opinion they are growing a little too fast.

But the high cost of FIRST is, realistically, the only thing letting the organization mature at a somewhat reasonable rate.

As much as I agree with what you say, I feel that the cost of registration may be a little too pricey. Our school administrators, team parents, other random teachers and of course, the membership could not believe how expensive this program was...until I told them about NASA
I wish that registration for a second event would be half the cost of registration for the first event...but I guess I better just get working on a marketing strategy

Anyways, 8 Million Dollars is not an exorbitant amount of money to have in reserve.......

-Just a Rookie's Two Cents

[ebarker]

I gotta ask this question - business and economics 101.

Some have asserted the $ 6,000 fee is too pricey.

What price level would be acceptable ?

$ 6, or $ 600 or $ 6000 or $ 60,000 ?

Try football and band if you want to spend some real money. It will blow the doors off FRC.

[JeffJ]

To Rick, Wilson and others - wasn't Amanda one of the people who ran the FTC program? Seems like she already confirmed the post you are questioning is true. Also, I see another person posting in the thread was the Director of the FTC program, so he could also refute that information, but he hasn't. As a parent looking into starting a Vex or FTC team, I am very troubled to hear that FIRST would be letting Lego dictate what what fee they charge FTC teams. I think FIRST owes the teams an answer and explanation.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by JeffJ

To Rick, Wilson and others - wasn't Amanda one of the people who ran the FTC program? Seems like she already confirmed the post you are questioning is true. Also, I see another person posting in the thread was the Director of the FTC program, so he could also refute that information, but he hasn't. As a parent looking into starting a Vex or FTC team, I am very troubled to hear that FIRST would be letting Lego dictate what what fee they charge FTC teams. I think FIRST owes the teams an answer and explanation.

Amanda deleted her post in this thread. I have no idea what she posted. I don't know who used to be director of FTC, and have no insight into why he or she may or may not have denied or confirmed anything. I'm just skeptical, not intransigent. I don't think it's impossible that FIRST was cooperating with their number one corporate partner, I just don't see the evidence here.

There have been rumors that IFI and FIRST were in some sort of fundamental disagreement about strategy (or a really nasty personality conflict) and that's why Vex is no longer part of FTC. Again, I wouldn't have any particular problem accepting it, I just haven't seen any evidence of it. The truth is that FIRST has made their decision on the FTC program and we can love it or leave it. I don't remember anyone at FIRST asking my opinion, which would, by the way, have been to stick with Vex.

[Chicago1st]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Amanda deleted her post in this thread. I have no idea what she posted. I don't know who used to be director of FTC, and have no insight into why he or she may or may not have denied or confirmed anything. I'm just skeptical, not intransigent. I don't think it's impossible that FIRST was cooperating with their number one corporate partner, I just don't see the evidence here.

Answer to your question - Amanda said I was not alone and was not the only one to be upset about what I posted.

I know many don't want to believe Lego and Pitsco are driving the FIRST program decisions, and I know many will want to remain in denial about it. Because I still respect some of the management at FIRST, while I do not agree with how they are running FIRST right now, I do not think they would lie to you or any team directly. I will guarantee you this - FIRST will not deny what is being discussed. They have acknowledged it to many people when pressed, even though we could tell they were not proud of what they were telling us. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, I thought many more were aware of it than I guess are.

Also, Lego is not FIRSTs number one partner. They are the FLL partner, but the growth of FRC and FIRST in general are due much more to the support of NASA, GM, and others. However, you may now be right, it does look like Lego and Pitsco are gaining access to 3 of the 4 FIRST programs now - programs to us, profit making markets to Lego.

You can tell how I feel about the Lego/Pitsco/FIRST arrangements, so it's clear I should not be helping run FLL or FTC events anymore. I'll still work with local teams, but I will not help raise funds to build Lego and FIRSTs revenue stream. I did and do this to help schools and students. I've been a strong supporter and defender of FIRST for a number of years, so stepping away is not easy for me.