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  #91   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2008, 03:48
Daviddavid Daviddavid is offline
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Re: New FTC Platform

[quote=Billfred;734750]A new blog post has gone up here, with video of S.H.I.R.T.'s drivetrain with the new platform. QUOTE]

I've got to steal a line from another post on a forum for my reaction to the video - just looks like a 2nd rate knockoff of Vex.

As I said in the FTC blog though, a 2nd rate knockoff/copy is normally cheaper. Somehow this knockoff is going to be more expensive? Just don't get it. Not impressed FIRST, this is a mistake. I know my team that we're putting together will not pay more for a Lego based robot than we will for a Vex robot.
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Unread 11-04-2008, 08:56
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Re: New FTC Platform

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daviddavid View Post

I've got to steal a line from another post on a forum for my reaction to the video - just looks like a 2nd rate knockoff of Vex.

As I said in the FTC blog though, a 2nd rate knockoff/copy is normally cheaper. Somehow this knockoff is going to be more expensive? Just don't get it. Not impressed FIRST, this is a mistake. I know my team that we're putting together will not pay more for a Lego based robot than we will for a Vex robot.
I'm not sure where you are coming from. This kit does not look cheap at all. I also don't know where this idea of a "Lego based robot" is coming from. The only thing the is Lego based is the controller. You aren't going to be seeing any other Lego parts from what i've been hearing.

Remember, no one is forcing you to change. You can always go play with your VEX parts in the new VEX Competition.
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Unread 11-04-2008, 10:36
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Re: New FTC Platform

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daviddavid View Post
I've got to steal a line from another post on a forum for my reaction to the video - just looks like a 2nd rate knockoff of Vex.
For all the hits against FIRST regarding how they released it and the continued lack of information about cost, packaging, and availability, I think it actually looks like quite a competent kit, at least on par with VEX. Or at least based on the grainy video and tiny pictures we've seen so far.

Could you elaborate on what is second rate about the components? We know the metal is better, motors are stronger, gears are stronger, processor is more powerful, etc. Component-wise, it is genuinely better. Whether you NEED that improvement or not and despite the lack of info about pricing, the kit itself seems like it is good quality.
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Unread 11-04-2008, 10:39
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Re: New FTC Platform

There are many good things about the Lego controller. There are many programming environments. Robot C has built in debugging, the Labview plugin can introduce students to labview and instrumentation. The distributed architecture can allow students to lean processor to processor communications. The platform is expandable. IFI limited the VEX platform by not exposing and supporting comunication busses. The only question is can FIRST put everything togeter in an economical package.
What I would like to see is NI develope a State machine block. I've been playing with Cypress PSOC Express and I'm impressed with thier implementation of a graphical state machine tool. This would allow the students to think in terms of robot behavior and the state machine concept with out the complexitity of the low level implementation. The First platform has the potential to be better as long as its not a budget buster.
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Unread 11-04-2008, 11:15
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Re: New FTC Platform

I think a lot of this discussion comes back to the idea that this kit in "unnecessary" considering there is already a competent kit out there, VEX. However we need to keep in mind that the reason a new kit is required is because of the apparent split between IFI and FIRST. So for the short amount of time that has passed so far FIRST has produced a pretty decent kit. If you look back at when VEX first came out it wasn't much better than this, however IFI continued to develop it. The question right now is how will this kit grow over the years?
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Unread 11-04-2008, 11:30
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Re: New FTC Platform

I haven't done FTC, but I do have a Vex kit, which I like a lot. I agree, it doesn't seem necessary to switch to a new platform. I guess the only part that suprises me is that it looks almost the same. If they wanted something drastically different or cheaper, then I would get why they are trying a new platform. But if it's going to be close to a copy of Vex and not going to be cheaper, then why change?

Anyway, it looks like a Vex kit with a Lego controller to me, which I guess is ok as long as there aren't any other lego parts in it. If there are lego parts, I wouldn't be interested (since I'm not 11 anymore). But I'm curious to see the complete kit and price, maybe it will be as good as Vex.
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Unread 11-04-2008, 13:13
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Re: New FTC Platform

I'm not sure where all of this new hatred against FIRST is coming from, it looks like they are developing an awesome new system that will be tons of fun to play with. Everything looks super beefy and more competition worthy (now we won't have to run a single arm joint with three motors!). I'm liking it and can't wait to play with one!

If you're angry about the price, you can still play the IFI Vex games...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TechieSam View Post
If there are lego parts, I wouldn't be interested (since I'm not 11 anymore).
I still play with LEGOs, and I'm in college. I've got tens of thousands of them in my room at the moment! Must be a matter of opinion. (I actually much prefer LEGO to Vex).
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Unread 11-04-2008, 18:46
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Re: New FTC Platform

I'm not sure which posts sound like they are hateful, hopefully you don't mean mine, if so, I'm sorry.
I am very frustrated with FIRST, I think they are handling the FTC program very poorly, and I don't think they've been open or honest with the teams and schools. I am a little angry and very frustrated, but it's clear many people feel that way. To some people like me, it's this simple - there are only two good reasons to switch a platform: if the current one isn't good and people want it replaced or if you find something as good or better that is cheaper. Neither is the happening here, so that's why so many are upset. The current Vex platform is very good (FIRST has told teams that for 3 years or so now and encouraged schools to buy it) and the new platform is not going to be cheaper. So there is no good reason - at least not one that is good for teams and schools.
About the Legos, I can't speak for Sam, but I can only speak for me and the friends on my FTC team the past couple years - many of us did FLL and liked it, but we don't want to play with NXT or Legos anymore. To me NXT and Lego are toys and Vex is not, regardless what FIRST wants to try to convince me of.

Again, if you meant my posts when you said people are hating on FIRST, please know it's frustration. If you didn't mean my posts, then good, I still believe everything I've said.
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Unread 11-04-2008, 18:55
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Re: New FTC Platform

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongle View Post
Could you elaborate on what is second rate about the components?
Good question. I was thinking of the general perception that copied and knocked off stuff is 2nd rate and cheap. It's pretty obvious they're just trying to come up with a platform to replace Vex and aren't even trying to make it look very different, so I consider it a Lego knockoff - just a NXT controller trying to copy the Vex kit. I consider "copied" stuff to be "cheap". Worst part is it sounds like it's going to be more expensive than Vex and not cheap. But it being a knockoff and cheap is just my opinion, some may disagree and many do not, just opinion.

On the other stuff - the Vex metal is great as is, so if the new metal is harder to work with, bend and modify, then it is not better. I don't care about metal gears or bigger motors, that's what I would do FRC to work with, but I do consider metal gears and bigger motors to be less safe for classroom use. So we have different opinions, I haven't seen anything in the new kit that looks "better" than Vex.
Hope that explains what I was saying, should have been more clear, didn't mean to confuse.
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Unread 11-04-2008, 19:50
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Re: New FTC Platform

Disclaimer: This is my personal opinions and observations. Please take it for what it's worth.

As a Teacher, I see no problem using the new kit in the classroom. As for the Vex metal: i can take it or leave it. It's light weight and easy to cut, however, i also feel that the metal is a bit too flimsy for a lot of applications. We had to double up angle to reach any length greater than 8". The gears: dude. The gears are the weak point of the VEX kit. For most applications we have had to double up the gears to keep them from slipping. This may have to do with the lack of power that the VEX motors have. In order to lift the two rings for this years game we had to gear down the joints so much we snapped teeth.
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Unread 11-04-2008, 20:33
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Re: New FTC Platform

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 View Post
This may have to do with the lack of power that the VEX motors have. In order to lift the two rings for this years game we had to gear down the joints so much we snapped teeth.
Depends on how you designed your pickup. We can quite comfortably pick up 9 rings on a gear ratio of 1:21 with 2 motors, and our gears have never snapped. I think we may have reduced our gear ratio even more for Atlanta.

However I do think VEX gears are a bit weak. We snapped 35 of the 12 tooth gears last year lifting 6-8 balls.
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Unread 14-04-2008, 03:25
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Re: New FTC Platform

Actually, the new kit may give new teams an advantage. I'm expecting that it will be shipped like an FRC kit of parts, because they keep talking about it being a "complete" kit without add-ons. (Of course...FIRST isn't going to start running its own shop for parts, like IFI.)

So teams like mine (2nd year of FTC, and we're going to Atlanta on the equivalent of 2 starter kits) just pay $1k, and get a mostly complete kit. Meanwhile, all the motors, gears, and other misc. hardware bought by the veteran teams go to waste, while the utility of all their metal is seriously reduced. Well, it's a compromise - FIRST hasn't exactly been very gracious or professional about their new platform.

I just hope that they can put together a complete kit for that much.
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Unread 14-04-2008, 08:34
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Re: New FTC Platform

Quote:
wilsonmw04:
This may have to do with the lack of power that the VEX motors have. In order to lift the two rings for this years game we had to gear down the joints so much we snapped teeth.
Quote:
Fredliu168:
However I do think VEX gears are a bit weak. We snapped 35 of the 12 tooth gears last year lifting 6-8 balls.
This gave both of you a chance to do the "engineering mentoring" that we are challenged to do. For example, when using a 12 tooth gear and a 60 tooth gear, there are 1.5 teeth engaged. This really puts the full force on a single tooth. Which most times means "snappage". But you can do different gear trains that do the reduction in multiple steps. Or double the gear faces so you have more support. Or change the design that stresses are reduced. Or some other solution that great teams are known for.

Engineering is about designing outside the box, while living with constraints that we can't change like gravity, friction and plastic gears. We so much want "well if I had them there Fosteranium indestructible parts" I could make this (arm, claw, lift, base, snorkel) work.

I've found that brute force engineering in FRC leads to the same place, snapped gears, bent arms, burned motors, broken chains, twisted frames, etc.

FTC / Vex makes you think by saying "only these parts". FRC says "use what you want, but weigh less than ..." Both are design constraints.

Let use FTC to teach some good engineering, thinking through the process and improving the design rather than brute force. And frankly, if it was going to be easy, you wouldn't be doing it, there would be no challenge in bolting parts made of Fosteranium together into an indestructible robot.
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Unread 15-04-2008, 00:21
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Re: New FTC Platform

I was very troubled to read today that FIRST and Lego have had an agreement requiring the FTC registration fees to stay higher than FLL. I find myself very upset to hear FIRST would be essentially selling students and teams as a commodity to Lego and Pitsco. Am I just a parent being too sensitive or is this something that also surprises and shocks others?
I wasn't sure why FIRST was pushing this new platform as a replacement to Vex, but now it seems to make sense. It wasn't to help students or schools, it was to help Lego and Pitsco. I expect that type of business dealing from Enron, Haliburton and others - but FIRST? They should be above that.
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Unread 15-04-2008, 00:26
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Re: New FTC Platform

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Originally Posted by JeffJ View Post
I was very troubled to read today that FIRST and Lego have had an agreement requiring the FTC registration fees to stay higher than FLL.
Please share your source.
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