Sad day, FIRST now FIRLP

[Molten]

Am I the only one that finds it suspicious that Daviddavid just jumped up 5 dots right after someone suggested that he might be taken more seriously if he had them. If this is truly 1 guy with many accounts, odds are that all of his fame came from the other new accounts that were recently made. If the admin, are seriously interested in seeing if there was any fowl play involved, then that would be a good place to start.

Also, Daviddavid... Are you saying that this is your only account? If not, do you know the owners of the other accounts that have been making similar threads? Did you read the user agreement? If you read the agreement and follow the rules, people will generally go easy on you.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Molten

Am I the only one that finds it suspicious that Daviddavid just jumped up 5 dots right after someone suggested that he might be taken more seriously if he had them. If this is truly 1 guy with many accounts, odds are that all of his fame came from the other new accounts that were recently made. If the admin, are seriously interested in seeing if there was any fowl play involved, then that would be a good place to start.

Foul play is too difficult to pull off, in the manner you've described it, without those other accounts running into the rep limiter (i.e. 'spread the reputation around'). And yes, you're probably the only one that finds it particularly suspicious.

More likely, people sympathize with his explanation, and have accepted his stated intentions at face value, until actual evidence to the contrary becomes available.

Edit: Just to be absolutely clear, I'm talking about accepting his reasons for posting, not necessarily his allegations.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

Foul play is too difficult to pull off, in the manner you've described it, without those other accounts running into the rep limiter (i.e. 'spread the reputation around'). And yes, you're probably the only one that finds it particularly suspicious.

More likely, people sympathize with his explanation, and have accepted his stated intentions at face value, until actual evidence to the contrary becomes available.

All I'm saying is that it takes a long time to get fame. Also, the 'spread the rep' limiter is only to ensure that you don't constantly give it to a single person. If he truly has four accounts. He could alternate the account that he gives the rep to and in turn give himself far more then the limiter would normally allow.

Go ahead and call me paranoid, I just don't see a single person getting that much that fast with the limited number of posts that he has used. Even if he does get a good deal of sympathy. Besides, I don't hear a great deal of sympathy coming from the general community. Especially, considering that a fair percentage don't even give rep. It is just very unusual which makes it suspicious.

[Chicago1st]

David,

My apologies to you and the others mentioned in this thread. I'm the only one who posted annonymously and I am very sorry that you and some others are being flamed because they agree with some of my statements or thoughts. There are many people who post on here without their names or team affiliations, if CD wants to cancel all of them, then fine. But at least be consistent - I don't think I said anything offensive or vulgar, I just posted my opnions about information that bothers me. Don't silence posts just because you don't want the information public or discussed - silence them if they are objectionable or offensive. Please people, stop being so rude to David, Jeff and others - don't make them guilty by association just because they agree with anything I said. Blame me, I posted annonymously, and explained why. To the person who mentioned rep points, I have received many rep points this week from a virtual who's who of people in FIRST, most I've never met. But I do feel better that they have seen what I have seen and they also don't think a lot of it is right, good for FIRST or good for teams.

I wasn't the messenger here, myself and others had this information disclosed to us by FIRST employees. If you want to shoot a messenger here on CD who posted annonymously, then shoot me - don't take it out on people who might be somewhat new to FIRST or ChiefDelphi, they don't deserve it.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Molten

All I'm saying is that it takes a long time to get fame. Also, the 'spread the rep' limiter is only to ensure that you don't constantly give it to a single person. If he truly has four accounts. He could alternate the account that he gives the rep to and in turn give himself far more then the limiter would normally allow.

Go ahead and call me paranoid, I just don't see a single person getting that much that fast with the limited number of posts that he has used. Even if he does get a good deal of sympathy. Besides, I don't hear a great deal of sympathy coming from the general community. Especially, considering that a fair percentage don't even give rep. It is just very unusual which makes it suspicious.

I think you should read the Reputation FAQ before you continue to make assumptions. A user can only give rep once they've made 50 posts. So even if your assumption that this poster is using the four accounts in question, they would be unable to increase each other's rep. Many longtime respected users of this forum can give substantial amounts of rep with one click. I can give a good 400+ points. So what this most likely means is, the fast rep accumulation is a result of a few reputation clicks from some of the top rep earners on this site.

[fredliu168]

I don't know about you, but I personally think $275 is a very reasonable price for the FTC program. Think about how they have to pay the GDC, FIRST affiliates, etc... I don't think $275,000 (rounding up the total teams), is actually enough to pay the expenses of running an operation like FTC. I personally think that without FRC, the registeration of the FTC program would increase immensely to maintain the same quality.

That being said, I don't mind FIRST striking a deal with lego as long as the registeration price remains around $275.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

I don't know about you, but I personally think $275 is a very reasonable price for the FTC program. Think about how they have to pay the GDC, FIRST affiliates, etc... I don't think $275,000 (rounding up the total teams), is actually enough to pay the expenses of running an operation like FTC. I personally think that without FRC, the registeration of the FTC program would increase immensely to maintain the same quality.

That being said, I don't mind FIRST striking a deal with lego as long as the registeration price remains around $275.

Wait a minute - the GDC and the affiliates get PAID??? FIRST has been holding out on me! I want my check!!!


(yeah, you might want to check your facts first before making posts like that)

[fredliu168]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Wait a minute - the GDC and the affiliates get PAID??? FIRST has been holding out on me! I want my check!!!


(yeah, you might want to check your facts first before making posts like that)

Wait they don't? Then I may have to reconsider my position.

I assumed FIRST regional directors, GDC, board of directors all receieved pay.

[GeorgeTheEng]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

Wait they don't? Then I may have to reconsider my position.

I assumed FIRST regional directors, GDC, board of directors all receieved pay.

FIRST Regional Directors are paid. FIRST Staff in Manchester is paid. Senior Mentors and Vista volunteers are given a honorarium.

GDC members are not paid, they volunteer. (Great thanks BTW to Dave for his endless years with FRC and Karthik to FTC along with all the others on the GDCs for both programs) The affiliate partners are also volunteer positions. Some may be paid if they partner is part of a not-for-profit organization that can do that, but it does not come from FIRST.

Board members are entirely different. On most not-for-profit boards, your membership is related to what you (personally) or your company provides the organization. In other words, Board member are expected to provide a level of sponsorship to FIRST programs.

All that being said, FTC currently employees 3 people directly, a director and two program coordinators. They also account for a portion of the G&A (General and administrative) staff... Finance, Volunteer support, IT, Operations, Management. I think all THAT for $275 is a bargain.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

Wait they don't? Then I may have to reconsider my position.

I assumed FIRST regional directors, GDC, board of directors all receieved pay.

Amended:
Not everyone is paid. There are many valuable volunteers in the FIRST organization.

On many levels.

In Texas there are all sorts of populations represented - from the very poor to the very wealthy.
This is evidenced and reflected in our schools/districts.
We try to find that balance here and the variety of choices in programs works.

[Andrew Bates]

I'm not saying this is the reason that FIRST and Lego struck a deal, but with FIRST and IFI breaking up that leaves a very large hole to fill. FIRST may have looked to Lego to fill the hole the IFI was leaving. However if this deal was struck when the FVC/FTC program was being created this may not be true. This is just more speculation, something to think about.

I will hold any more judgment until we get some hard facts. Maybe they will address these issues at Championships?

[GBilletdeaux930]

Like it or not, FIRST is still a buisness. FIRST may be able to rely on volunteers for alot but volunteers arn't going to pay for everything.

Coming from a member of team that, like many others i assume, money is probably the biggest factor on what we do and FIRST is no different. FIRST needs money to hold these events.

Also, LEGO has been gracious by basicly supplying FIRST with FLL. We all know that FLL would not be the same without LEGO. And, like a buisness, they will give so much but they still expect somthing in return. And now they are providing FTC with a tool that, presumably(I say presumably because im going off another post farther up that said "modified(?)"), they havent released to the general public.

Inflation is part of our lives these days. And personaly, I'm more concerned with gas prices going up that were paying atleast $50 a tank of gas then a $75 dollar increase that you pay once a year.

[Elgin Clock]

These types of threads amuse me.

The reason is that I'm willing to bet not one of you has sat on the board of directors within this organization, and personally heard why or what the long term goals of FIRST is.

And don't look at me. I haven't either. But I do know this program exists for one reason.

To inspire youth to pursue careers in Science & Technology.

That's a pretty vague statement, this is true; but it gives FIRST whatever liberties on their end they feel is the best way to do this.

Do you want to start your own not-for-profit organization to inspire youth?
Do you want to even imagine how different that program will be & what you will have to sacrifice personally, & in the business sense to accomplish your basic goals?
Would you even know what your goals were going to be in a year? 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
Would you have what it took to be a member of the board of this program if all you heard from down the chain was whining about everything you ever did?

It seems to me these forums, and some of the people on it are so far caught up in the HS world of robotics, and the situations that develop out of that world, that they tend to use any excuse to take the "HS drama mentality" up the chain to FIRST itself.

I've gotten annoyed at some of the things FIRST as an organization has done over the years, and I'm willing to bet you won't find anyone who hasn't.

What we need to do though, is separate the problems on the field, & the problems within management, and approach the issues you have a problem with in a good way.

A public forum in my opinion is not a good way.
Not CD anyways. Don't add to the stress of the already crazy season by making the mods here work overtime (volunteering btw) because of your whining, and complaining about everything you can in this program.

Let's leave the HS drama for the students, and as Mentors approach these things in a civilized manner.

I saw a suggestion of a "town meeting" of sorts with FIRST to discuss certain problems or changes within the organizations.

Let's all take a minute, and come up with some reasonable questions if you have any and not assume what someone told you is correct unless it comes from an official source.

Even Dave probably doesn't consider himself an official spokesperson for FIRST on these forums. He may post here about things, and partake in discussions, but we've all learned that the only official word form FIRST comes in a more official medium than a web forum - especially this one.

If you have problems with the organization, feel free to ask FIRST directly, and not start the "he said she said" game on these forums.

Most of the people partaking in those discussions I've seen are mentors.
Is this what we want our kids to learn from us?

That the HS drama & accusations mentality is a way to get answers when you aren't even in HS?

I am just truly disappointed in some people here & what they are saying.

It's not because what they are saying may be false (it very well may be true) but it's the way you are carrying out your statements that are making you look bad & reflecting poorly on the FIRST community as a whole.

I don't usually post serious things here, as some of you know, but when the maturity level of adults goes below that to most of the students in the programs we are involved in then I feel something needs to be said or done to remedy the situation.



This may be my last post till after Atlanta, so I hope this thread turns around in its overall direction it's heading in and starts to ask some good questions, and leads to some good answers.
Asking tough questions is not always a bad thing, but the way you ask them makes the difference.

I would hate to think that after a week it will lead to an even worse decline in attitudes towards the program we can all agree is achieving its main goal.

To inspire youth to pursue careers in Science & Technology.

If you feel it's not accomplishing that, then I, as well as many others will gladly show you the door.


And if you don't agree with me, send me a PM.

Or send me a quick response with some red negative rep dots...
They are only dots, and I have way too many of them anyways.
I really don't care how you choose to counter these thoughts of mine.
Agree with me.
Disagree with me.
But do it in a civilized manner and while you are at it, post in a civilized manner on the topics at hand.



Good luck to those teams going to Atlanta, and to those who can't join us, at least tune in & see what inspiration looks like.

This weekend is the culmination of all the inspiration FIRST has to offer over these past 15 or so years it has existed.
At least show some respect for that.

/steps off of soapbox.

[Molten]

I am tired of reading posts without facts. If anyone finds hard evidence as to support either side I would love to hear it, please send me a PM. Until then, I will disregard this thread as heresay.

BTW: Hard facts mean statistics. Not I heard this from a friend. The latter is about all I have seen on here.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

That is, if you think anyone's getting rich off this, think again.

Well, Andy Baker is now that we are routing Dave's GDC paychecks to him...

EDITED: And I would pay a quarter to be on the design committee. I have some ideas concerning the use of water in the game...