Sad day, FIRST now FIRLP

[Brandon Martus]

The reputation given to Daviddavid since his last few posts are valid.
Ease up, guys. Please.

[dlavery]

I must admit to being very intrigued by the general response to this thread. Such an intense focus on the validity (or not) of the account assigned to the thread-starter. So little discussion about the question that the originating post raises.

As a FLL team parent, an FTC team sponsor, and FRC team participant, I must admit to cocking an eyebrow at the notion that the costs associated with participation in some programs may be influenced more by a sweetheart deal with one specific supplier than they are by the justifiable costs of running the program. If such a situation should exist, as it has been reported that FIRST has indicated, then I would be abandoning my duties to protect the pecuniary health of my team if I did not seek to fully understand the reasons why this situation may (or may not) exist.

Are we spending too much time shooting the messenger, while ignoring the message?

-dave



.

[Beth Sweet]

Folks, Brandon will take care of anonymous accounts. Please talk about the thread topic.

As to the thread topic, I have a hard time believing it is corruption. There is a difference between corruption and poor management. Unless there is proof, please call it poor management, not corruption, if it is your opinion that things are being done improperly.

I must remind you that the costs of everything are going up right now. Your food, your clothes, all prices are going up because of the oil issues (the discussion of which are for another thread). LEGO, based on these ideas, may be having to raise their prices (which are likely discounted to begin with) based on that, or to be able to supply less because of this. Gas prices are hitting everyone. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but you can't even get a candy bar for less than $.50.

Now I don't know if this is the reason or not, but I'm just saying that is a reason that prices are going up. So much as our ideals may be in a different world than the rest of society, unfortunately our pocketbooks are directly effected by the economy...

For the record, I have not gotten a chance to run the financials for this year to make an opinion on the issue

[Molten]

Originally Posted by dlavery

I must admit to being very intrigued by the general response to this thread. Such an intense focus on the validity (or not) of the account assigned to the thread-starter. So little discussion about the question that the originating post raises.

As a FLL team parent, an FTC team sponsor, and FRC team participant, I must admit to cocking an eyebrow at the notion that the costs associated with participation in some programs may be influenced more by a sweetheart deal with one specific supplier than they are by the justifiable costs of running the program. If such a situation should exist, as it has been reported that FIRST has indicated, then I would be abandoning my duties to protect the pencuniary health of my team if I did not seek to fully understand the reasons why this situation may (or may not) exist.

Are we spending too much time shooting the messenger, while ignoring the message?

-dave



.

Lavery has spoken. I do not think that the costs rising are our's to worry about. If you can't afford it, then find a different competition. If my team can't afford it... We will probably look into battlebots or one of the many other robotics competitions to choose from. I do not question the grocer over the price of milk. I buy it, or I go elsewhere. Why should this be different? FIRST is a great organization, but it is not like it does not have competitors.

[Adam Y.]

Originally Posted by Molten

Lavery has spoken. I do not think that the costs rising are our's to worry about. If you can't afford it, then find a different competition. If my team can't afford it... We will probably look into battlebots or one of the many other robotics competitions to choose from. I do not question the grocer over the price of milk. I buy it, or I go elsewhere. Why should this be different? FIRST is a great organization, but it is not like it does not have competitors.

How is Battlebots cheaper unless you go for the smaller robots?

As a FLL team parent, an FTC team sponsor, and FRC team participant, I must admit to cocking an eyebrow at the notion that the costs associated with participation in some programs may be influenced more by a sweetheart deal with one specific supplier than they are by the justifiable costs of running the program. If such a situation should exist, as it has been reported that FIRST has indicated, then I would be abandoning my duties to protect the pencuniary health of my team if I did not seek to fully understand the reasons why this situation may (or may not) exist.

If we had more proof I would be singing a different tune but right now all we have is "non denials" and an anonyomous poster. Right now the best I can admit to is saying that there can be multiple reasons why.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by dlavery

IIf such a situation should exist, as it has been reported that FIRST has indicated, then I would be abandoning my duties to protect the pencuniary health of my team if I did not seek to fully understand the reasons why this situation may (or may not) exist. Are we spending too much time shooting the messenger, while ignoring the message?

There at least two other threads where this horse has not only been beaten, it has been flensed, rendered, and the bones ground up. It's not so much a horse any more as it is glue.

In short, the discussion has been:

1. Allegation
2. Skepticism
3. Allegation
4. Request for confirmation (as in "facts")
5. Allegation
6. Repeated request for facts
7. Allegations jumping to other threads
8. Request (mea culpa) for the mods to investigate this as a trollish invasion

It remains a fact-free discussion, which I find especially troubling in a community dedicated to the rational process of science and engineering. My mind is open, but not so open that it's going to fall out of my head.

[Pavan Dave]

Originally Posted by Joe Matt

FYI, I've challeneged, questioned, and called out FIRST on these forums, in public, and on podcast. Saying anyone is silenced who calls them out is as bad as saying everyone here is just a bunch of whiners; it's not true, it's a blanket statement, and is usually written out of passion of the moment.

Again, CHILL.

Not to condone this kind of behaviour but to get the record straight, I have spoken out against FIRST on many occasions as I am someone who is a supporter of Robotics Education rather then a FIRST fan.

In some posts I have been very respectful and courteous and have even given support of my opinions and viewpoints. I recieved both good and bad repuatations from very 'elite' members of these forums who you are saying do not judge you for "anti-FIRST" messages but more bad then good. At the same time, I have challenged FIRST in a rude and [almost] insulting manner and recieved both repuatations from 'elite' members but more good then bad.

People should stop saying "we judge by the quailty of the post and not the pro-anti-FIRST messages" because its NOT TRUE!


Also, I know MANY people who have been members on these forums for over 5 years and have yet to post! It doesn't mean anything. Let Brandon check IPs if he wishes but don't accuse without proof (the same thing you are telling David to do.)


David, rather then bash FIRST why not hop? You can't change a company/corporation/organization by yourself. You have to go through a time consuming process usually involving lawyers.... Have you tried VEX [IFI]? Botball? BEST? among other programs? Check out the NASA Robotics Alliance Project website - http://robotics.nasa.gov/edu/matrix.php


EDIT:

Dave, when the messenger originally asks for one sort of payment but continues to raise it every other trip does it make the message "more" important because more was spent transporting? People need to realize that FIRST has its flaws! EVERYONE DOES! If you don't agree with the messenger find a new one! We have FedEx and UPS if we don't like the default USPS. If 3-days gets the job done, why overnight?

[TechieSam]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Daviddavid is one of several new accounts created in the last 30 days making unsupported accusations of non-specific malfeasance on the part of FIRST officials. Since this is replicative of at least two other threads that have been infested by this anonymous posting activity I would like to ask the mods to shut down this thread and (please) look into whether or not there is an ongoing violation of the prohibition against multiple anonymous accounts. The other accounts I suspect were created just to parrot the same thing are "JeffJ," "Mary," and "Chicago1st."

Rick, I checked the "members" listing of ChiefDelphi. There are currently 300 pages of pages of members with 30 or less posts, most of them with less than 10 posts and who are annonymous according to you. I counted 50 members on a page, that means you have about 15,000 members who should be moderated, removed, questioned or I guess just not listened to. There are thousands of members without last names, without team affiliations and so on - either they are all annonymous or they aren't, but don't be hypocritical. If you want a new rule saying everyone must use their full name, address, phone number and have a background check, fine - but don't just call out people who are voicing critical opinions you don't agree with or don't want to believe. Ever occur to you that some of the accounts on here ignoring information and praising FIRST like it's an infalible organization are "fake" and just plants trying to spin positive views of decisions people would object to?

Since I am one of those newer members who just started posting again recently, and since I agree with what David has said and think FIRST is doing some questionable things, I would like to report myself to the moderators. I guess I should be moderated or silenced also since I'm don't think FIRST is perfect and is capable of doing things we wouldn't be proud of. By the way, I didn't give David any rep points - I don't care what his rep is, and I don't care what yours is either.

But Dave Lavery said we should focus on the topic of the thread, not who posted it. And since he has lots of posts and a great reputation, it sounds like I have permission to value his comments. So I'll get on topic and share this:

This morning I called one of the planning committee members here that works with the FLL and FTC events in the Bay Area. They confirmed that Lego and FIRST did make such an agreement a couple years ago. I asked who confirmed it to them, and they said a FIRST rep named Steve Chizm. They said they asked why the Vex fees couldn't be cheaper, at least for extra teams from the same school, and they were told becuase of a deal with Lego preventing any FVC fees to be the same or lower than Lego fees. So back to the point of the thread, I will state my opinion - I think that is horrible and I think FIRST is selling out their own teams if there is any truth to that. Sorry if some don't want to hear that opinion, but it's mine. If I should stop posting on Delphi because I question FIRST, let me know and I will.

But based on what I've been told, I don't think David's FIRST vs FIRLP statement is out of line.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by TechieSam

This morning I called one of the planning committee members here that works with the FLL and FTC events in the Bay Area. They confirmed that Lego and FIRST did make such an agreement a couple years ago. I asked who confirmed it to them, and they said a FIRST rep named Steve Chism. They said they asked why the Vex fees couldn't be cheaper, at least for extra teams from the same school, and they were told becuase of a deal with Lego preventing any FVC fees to be the same or lower than Lego fees. So back to the point of the thread, I will state my opinion - I think that is horrible and I think FIRST is selling out their own teams if there is any truth to that. Sorry if some don't want to hear that opinion, but it's mine. If I should stop posting on Delphi because I question FIRST, let me know and I will.

Thank you. This is the sort of information I asked for originally. Now I am trying to figure out how FIRST is selling out its teams. Do you mean to say that because FTC has a higher registration fee than FLL, and that this was part of an agreement with LEGO, that this is a sell out? The FTC fee is $275 per team, and FLL is $200 per team. So, it is true that FTC costs $75 more to register than FLL. Is this the core of the claim that FIRST has sold us out?

[Chicago1st]

David,

My apologies to you and the others mentioned in this thread. I'm the only one who posted annonymously and I am very sorry that you and some others are being flamed because they agree with some of my statements or thoughts. There are many people who post on here without their names or team affiliations, if CD wants to cancel all of them, then fine. But at least be consistent - I don't think I said anything offensive or vulgar, I just posted my opnions about information that bothers me. Don't silence posts just because you don't want the information public or discussed - silence them if they are objectionable or offensive. Please people, stop being so rude to David, Jeff and others - don't make them guilty by association just because they agree with anything I said. Blame me, I posted annonymously, and explained why. To the person who mentioned rep points, I have received many rep points this week from a virtual who's who of people in FIRST, most I've never met. But I do feel better that they have seen what I have seen and they also don't think a lot of it is right, good for FIRST or good for teams.

I wasn't the messenger here, myself and others had this information disclosed to us by FIRST employees. If you want to shoot a messenger here on CD who posted annonymously, then shoot me - don't take it out on people who might be somewhat new to FIRST or ChiefDelphi, they don't deserve it.

[Zyik]

Originally Posted by TechieSam

They said they asked why the Vex fees couldn't be cheaper, at least for extra teams from the same school, and they were told because of a deal with Lego preventing any FVC fees to be the same or lower than Lego fees.

Alright, do we have any idea when this deal runs out? Will it ever run out? I don't like the fact that FIRST made this deal, but we're only hearing one side of it. Maybe what FIRST got in exchange, something like significantly lower prices for Lego League teams, was thought to be worth it, at least at first. Thats speculation on my part. As an alumni of a Lego League team I would like to know.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Zyik

we're only hearing one side of it. Maybe what FIRST got in exchange, something like significantly lower prices for Lego League teams, was thought to be worth it

This is pure speculation: LEGO is going to allow FIRST to use a modified(?) version of the NXT controller for the new FTC program. LEGO doesn't normally do deals like this, and giving FIRST permission to use the NXT with non-LEGO construction pieces was a significant concession. In exchange for this, FIRST agreed to keep FTC the mid-range, mid-price program, with FLL cheaper and FRC more expensive. In exchange for keeping FTC in the middle, FIRST gets access to a fully-engineered(?) controller from a large, stable company. Not to say anything negative about IFI -- we just start by assuming that the FIRST/IFI divorce is due to irreconcilable differences and is going to happen no matter what.

Son of speculation: LEGO becomes a huge, flagship sponsor of the whole FIRST program, from JFLL to FRC. Even more huge than they already are.

Even more speculation: The FRC controller is based on the same platform.

Like I said, I am COMPLETELY making this up, but it would fit the known facts, and it also assumes that FIRST management really is trying to run a great program and not rip off the participants.

[Madison]

...why does FIRST need to get anything beyond a continued partnership with LEGO in return for such an arrangement?

The FLL program strikes me as the only of FIRST's programs that relies heavily on a single business relationship for its success. Without LEGO, there is no FLL and that gives LEGO significant leverage in any negotiation is has with FIRST. I won't speculate as to whether or not they've used that leverage.

One of FRC's strongest characteristics is the implied cooperation that occurs between its sponsors. What better way to encourage the creation of a new paradigm in what our society values and in how we conduct business than to bring together the largest corporations we can find and have them work together -- on the field while their sponsored teams compete -- and behind-the-scenes, donating volunteers and materials that create our ecclectic kit of parts.

[TechieSam]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Thank you. This is the sort of information I asked for originally. Now I am trying to figure out how FIRST is selling out its teams. Do you mean to say that because FTC has a higher registration fee than FLL, and that this was part of an agreement with LEGO, that this is a sell out? The FTC fee is $275 per team, and FLL is $200 per team. So, it is true that FTC costs $75 more to register than FLL. Is this the core of the claim that FIRST has sold us out?

Why would Lego have any say in the fees charged for Vex or FRC in the first place!?!? Isn't it FIRST's job to look out for the best interest of the teams, not the for-profit partners?

Here's what I would consider selling out - if Vex, the FTC partners and others requested that the team fees be $200 or lower for Vex to make it more affordable for more teams to join FTC and they were told the price for Vex must be higher at the request of Lego, then that is selling out. That is price fixing and that is what I consider selling out. If you think it's ok to raise the prices on FTC or FRC teams just to make Lego look more affordable to potential FTC schools, then I would disagree with you. That should be up to the schools to decide, not Lego or Vex.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Molten

All I'm saying is that it takes a long time to get fame. Also, the 'spread the rep' limiter is only to ensure that you don't constantly give it to a single person. If he truly has four accounts. He could alternate the account that he gives the rep to and in turn give himself far more then the limiter would normally allow.

Go ahead and call me paranoid, I just don't see a single person getting that much that fast with the limited number of posts that he has used. Even if he does get a good deal of sympathy. Besides, I don't hear a great deal of sympathy coming from the general community. Especially, considering that a fair percentage don't even give rep. It is just very unusual which makes it suspicious.

I think you should read the Reputation FAQ before you continue to make assumptions. A user can only give rep once they've made 50 posts. So even if your assumption that this poster is using the four accounts in question, they would be unable to increase each other's rep. Many longtime respected users of this forum can give substantial amounts of rep with one click. I can give a good 400+ points. So what this most likely means is, the fast rep accumulation is a result of a few reputation clicks from some of the top rep earners on this site.