Sad day, FIRST now FIRLP

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by TechieSam

Why would Lego have any say in the fees charged for Vex or FRC in the first place!?!? Isn't it FIRST's job to look out for the best interest of the teams, not the for-profit partners?

Why would placing FTC in a particular market position at a price point higher than FLL necessarily be against the best interest of the teams?

Here's what I would consider selling out - if Vex, the FTC partners and others requested that the team fees be $200 or lower for Vex to make it more affordable for more teams to join FTC and they were told the price for Vex must be higher at the request of Lego, then that is selling out. That is price fixing and that is what I consider selling out. If you think it's ok to raise the prices on FTC or FRC teams just to make Lego look more affordable to potential FTC schools, then I would disagree with you. That should be up to the schools to decide, not Lego or Vex.

I would like the program to be free. FIRST isn't going to do that. I am not happy, but I choose to live with it.

Price fixing is when a group of two or more vendors gets together and agrees to have the same price for the same good or service. A single vendor can set their prices to any level they want, but that's not price fixing. It might be "dumb pricing" but it's not fixing.

What should be up to the schools? The choice of robotics program, or the registration fees charged by FIRST? I would say that schools can already choose whatever robotics program they like, and that they will not be given control over FIRST's fees.

For what it's worth, in the world of a robotics team budget, $75 is play money. On a 10-person FTC team, that's less than the cost of a movie ticket per person. If each one downloaded eight fewer songs from iTunes they could pay the extra $7.50 and still have enough left to buy a newspaper. Without the cost of going to championships, our Post spent more than $3,000 this year on our three FTC teams, and with championships added in our families and sponsors will have spent about $10,000. The "extra" $225 we spent over the cost of FLL registration just wasn't a big deal. We spent almost twice that just on t-shirts. It might be a sell-out, but not one that really costs very much.

[fredliu168]

I don't know about you, but I personally think $275 is a very reasonable price for the FTC program. Think about how they have to pay the GDC, FIRST affiliates, etc... I don't think $275,000 (rounding up the total teams), is actually enough to pay the expenses of running an operation like FTC. I personally think that without FRC, the registeration of the FTC program would increase immensely to maintain the same quality.

That being said, I don't mind FIRST striking a deal with lego as long as the registeration price remains around $275.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by TechieSam

Why would Lego have any say in the fees charged for Vex or FRC in the first place!?!? Isn't it FIRST's job to look out for the best interest of the teams, not the for-profit partners?

Everyone needs a bone thrown to them sometimes... It's business!
FIRST would not exist without for profit partners.

Look at most of the regionals out there. At one point almost every regional had a sponsor attached to the name. Some still do. Do you think our measly 6k registration fees could put up the cash for 41 regionals at ~150k a pop? With enough to run the every day operations of the program? And a rainy day fund? And to fund every little thing most people take for granted? The signs? Videos? Pictures? Brochures? Web site? Yes, these things all cost lots of money.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

I don't know about you, but I personally think $275 is a very reasonable price for the FTC program. Think about how they have to pay the GDC, FIRST affiliates, etc... I don't think $275,000 (rounding up the total teams), is actually enough to pay the expenses of running an operation like FTC. I personally think that without FRC, the registeration of the FTC program would increase immensely to maintain the same quality.

That being said, I don't mind FIRST striking a deal with lego as long as the registeration price remains around $275.

Wait a minute - the GDC and the affiliates get PAID??? FIRST has been holding out on me! I want my check!!!


(yeah, you might want to check your facts first before making posts like that)

[fredliu168]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Wait a minute - the GDC and the affiliates get PAID??? FIRST has been holding out on me! I want my check!!!


(yeah, you might want to check your facts first before making posts like that)

Wait they don't? Then I may have to reconsider my position.

I assumed FIRST regional directors, GDC, board of directors all receieved pay.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

Think about how they have to pay the GDC

Umm, I think I my cheque must have been lost in the mail...

/Gah, Dave beat me to the punch.

[GeorgeTheEng]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

Wait they don't? Then I may have to reconsider my position.

I assumed FIRST regional directors, GDC, board of directors all receieved pay.

FIRST Regional Directors are paid. FIRST Staff in Manchester is paid. Senior Mentors and Vista volunteers are given a honorarium.

GDC members are not paid, they volunteer. (Great thanks BTW to Dave for his endless years with FRC and Karthik to FTC along with all the others on the GDCs for both programs) The affiliate partners are also volunteer positions. Some may be paid if they partner is part of a not-for-profit organization that can do that, but it does not come from FIRST.

Board members are entirely different. On most not-for-profit boards, your membership is related to what you (personally) or your company provides the organization. In other words, Board member are expected to provide a level of sponsorship to FIRST programs.

All that being said, FTC currently employees 3 people directly, a director and two program coordinators. They also account for a portion of the G&A (General and administrative) staff... Finance, Volunteer support, IT, Operations, Management. I think all THAT for $275 is a bargain.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

Wait they don't? Then I may have to reconsider my position.

I assumed FIRST regional directors, GDC, board of directors all receieved pay.

Amended:
Not everyone is paid. There are many valuable volunteers in the FIRST organization.

On many levels.

In Texas there are all sorts of populations represented - from the very poor to the very wealthy.
This is evidenced and reflected in our schools/districts.
We try to find that balance here and the variety of choices in programs works.

[Andrew Bates]

I'm not saying this is the reason that FIRST and Lego struck a deal, but with FIRST and IFI breaking up that leaves a very large hole to fill. FIRST may have looked to Lego to fill the hole the IFI was leaving. However if this deal was struck when the FVC/FTC program was being created this may not be true. This is just more speculation, something to think about.

I will hold any more judgment until we get some hard facts. Maybe they will address these issues at Championships?

[GBilletdeaux930]

Like it or not, FIRST is still a buisness. FIRST may be able to rely on volunteers for alot but volunteers arn't going to pay for everything.

Coming from a member of team that, like many others i assume, money is probably the biggest factor on what we do and FIRST is no different. FIRST needs money to hold these events.

Also, LEGO has been gracious by basicly supplying FIRST with FLL. We all know that FLL would not be the same without LEGO. And, like a buisness, they will give so much but they still expect somthing in return. And now they are providing FTC with a tool that, presumably(I say presumably because im going off another post farther up that said "modified(?)"), they havent released to the general public.

Inflation is part of our lives these days. And personaly, I'm more concerned with gas prices going up that were paying atleast $50 a tank of gas then a $75 dollar increase that you pay once a year.

[Elgin Clock]

These types of threads amuse me.

The reason is that I'm willing to bet not one of you has sat on the board of directors within this organization, and personally heard why or what the long term goals of FIRST is.

And don't look at me. I haven't either. But I do know this program exists for one reason.

To inspire youth to pursue careers in Science & Technology.

That's a pretty vague statement, this is true; but it gives FIRST whatever liberties on their end they feel is the best way to do this.

Do you want to start your own not-for-profit organization to inspire youth?
Do you want to even imagine how different that program will be & what you will have to sacrifice personally, & in the business sense to accomplish your basic goals?
Would you even know what your goals were going to be in a year? 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
Would you have what it took to be a member of the board of this program if all you heard from down the chain was whining about everything you ever did?

It seems to me these forums, and some of the people on it are so far caught up in the HS world of robotics, and the situations that develop out of that world, that they tend to use any excuse to take the "HS drama mentality" up the chain to FIRST itself.

I've gotten annoyed at some of the things FIRST as an organization has done over the years, and I'm willing to bet you won't find anyone who hasn't.

What we need to do though, is separate the problems on the field, & the problems within management, and approach the issues you have a problem with in a good way.

A public forum in my opinion is not a good way.
Not CD anyways. Don't add to the stress of the already crazy season by making the mods here work overtime (volunteering btw) because of your whining, and complaining about everything you can in this program.

Let's leave the HS drama for the students, and as Mentors approach these things in a civilized manner.

I saw a suggestion of a "town meeting" of sorts with FIRST to discuss certain problems or changes within the organizations.

Let's all take a minute, and come up with some reasonable questions if you have any and not assume what someone told you is correct unless it comes from an official source.

Even Dave probably doesn't consider himself an official spokesperson for FIRST on these forums. He may post here about things, and partake in discussions, but we've all learned that the only official word form FIRST comes in a more official medium than a web forum - especially this one.

If you have problems with the organization, feel free to ask FIRST directly, and not start the "he said she said" game on these forums.

Most of the people partaking in those discussions I've seen are mentors.
Is this what we want our kids to learn from us?

That the HS drama & accusations mentality is a way to get answers when you aren't even in HS?

I am just truly disappointed in some people here & what they are saying.

It's not because what they are saying may be false (it very well may be true) but it's the way you are carrying out your statements that are making you look bad & reflecting poorly on the FIRST community as a whole.

I don't usually post serious things here, as some of you know, but when the maturity level of adults goes below that to most of the students in the programs we are involved in then I feel something needs to be said or done to remedy the situation.



This may be my last post till after Atlanta, so I hope this thread turns around in its overall direction it's heading in and starts to ask some good questions, and leads to some good answers.
Asking tough questions is not always a bad thing, but the way you ask them makes the difference.

I would hate to think that after a week it will lead to an even worse decline in attitudes towards the program we can all agree is achieving its main goal.

To inspire youth to pursue careers in Science & Technology.

If you feel it's not accomplishing that, then I, as well as many others will gladly show you the door.


And if you don't agree with me, send me a PM.

Or send me a quick response with some red negative rep dots...
They are only dots, and I have way too many of them anyways.
I really don't care how you choose to counter these thoughts of mine.
Agree with me.
Disagree with me.
But do it in a civilized manner and while you are at it, post in a civilized manner on the topics at hand.



Good luck to those teams going to Atlanta, and to those who can't join us, at least tune in & see what inspiration looks like.

This weekend is the culmination of all the inspiration FIRST has to offer over these past 15 or so years it has existed.
At least show some respect for that.

/steps off of soapbox.

[Molten]

I am tired of reading posts without facts. If anyone finds hard evidence as to support either side I would love to hear it, please send me a PM. Until then, I will disregard this thread as heresay.

BTW: Hard facts mean statistics. Not I heard this from a friend. The latter is about all I have seen on here.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Wait a minute - the GDC and the affiliates get PAID??? FIRST has been holding out on me! I want my check!!!

We had all that money routed to Andy Baker's secret Swiss bank accounts. We didn't want you to OD on sugar-coated fried-dough products. It was for your own good.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

That is, if you think anyone's getting rich off this, think again.

Well, Andy Baker is now that we are routing Dave's GDC paychecks to him...

EDITED: And I would pay a quarter to be on the design committee. I have some ideas concerning the use of water in the game...

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Wait a minute - the GDC and the affiliates get PAID??? FIRST has been holding out on me! I want my check!!!


(yeah, you might want to check your facts first before making posts like that)

ME TOO DAVE! Let's see.. how many THOUSANDS of hours have I put in to FTC over the last season??? Times minimum wage - wow, I could give up my day job!