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Unread 21-04-2008, 11:02
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

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Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison View Post
  • I was lucky to be on a team in 2002 that won the Championship. As a high school senior, I cannot tell you what a profound experience it was to walk on stage, receive our trophies and medals, hug Woodie and Dean, and get the recognition from other competing teams. This year, the stands were emptying before the last half of the last finals match. An announcement was made for teams to head over to the FIRST Finale immediately after the match completed and the score announced. I was extremely saddened that my students were not able to have a similar experience for their hard work and effort as that which profoundly changed my life. Their win was trivialized - yes, confetti and streamers, but having a teacher hand you your medal in the abandoned pit area shortly before you get on the bus is anti-climactic compared to the team walking across Einstein or the stage and receiving recognition for their effort to get to that point. Seeing thousands of people in the stands and realizing what an extreme honor is being placed upon you is a truly epic moment in a child's life. While I know my students were exceptionally happy and excited for the honor, I had only wished they could have been given the opportunity that I was lucky enough to experience.
I think this is an easy thing to fix. Most people by then are hungry, tired, and want to get out of the seats. Why not move the giving of metals to teams at the wrap party right before the fireworks? Right there up on stage, with banners and trophies, then everyone can scream "GO FIRST!" and the fireworks will begin. Get Dean, Woodie, and everyone up on stage for it too.
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Unread 21-04-2008, 11:31
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

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Originally Posted by Chris Fultz View Post
Bumper Rules - after 2 regionals, ours were declared illegal during inspection. i was told we should have seen it in the Q+A. It was a big deal, and i think deserved an email blast if it was going to affect very many teams.
I saw a lot of bumpers passed in regionals that I thought were illegal, or at least sub-legal. I questioned one set in particular, and at the team's direction the head inspector found a Q&A that seemed to create a loophole that fit that particular design. The bumper rules have to be tightened up in words, not just in pictures.

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I agree with Amanda on the crowd. Last year, people left before the CA was announced, and many more were gone before MOE got to the field. This year, very few were there a few minutes after the last match. we need to find a way to keep people in their seats until the end.
Maybe if the finals got over a half hour before the Finale started, not after. It's been how many years now with finals going overtime, NASA TV has to cut off before the finals are run, everyone either leaves early or eats cold food and misses some of the entertainment. Fix the schedule to make it realistic!
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[/list]Why not move the giving of metals to teams at the wrap party right before the fireworks? Right there up on stage, with banners and trophies, then everyone can scream "GO FIRST!" and the fireworks will begin. Get Dean, Woodie, and everyone up on stage for it too.
Good idea. We'd have to iron out the details about not every team attending, or some that have transportation issues that make them leave early. Also, at the Finale many are off playing games or otherwise wandering around; the tables were pretty empty by the time the entertainment was finished. But something worth exploring.
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Unread 21-04-2008, 11:31
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

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Originally Posted by Joe Matt View Post
[/list]I think this is an easy thing to fix. Most people by then are hungry, tired, and want to get out of the seats. Why not move the giving of metals to teams at the wrap party right before the fireworks? Right there up on stage, with banners and trophies, then everyone can scream "GO FIRST!" and the fireworks will begin. Get Dean, Woodie, and everyone up on stage for it too.

I agree but not everyone goes to the wrap party, It would be easier to limit the speeches that people give. I love hearing some of the most important business leaders and inventors speak at these events but sometimes they go one forever and cause loooooong delays that snowball to everything else.

I did not like that the CA was given out first. It made it seem that winning the field competition was more important then the CA. And I was sitting right behind where 842 was sitting watching the matches before they were called up to the stage and they had amazing seats to watch everything until they were called down to the stage.
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Unread 21-04-2008, 11:50
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

This years game was a lot of fun and a really amazing idea. Unlike most I don't have any problem with the breaking the plane penalty, my team had an issue and I, as coach, told them to learn to drive. Complaining about a penalty concerned with robot control is not good, the only bit of that rule that was unfair was when the bumper (which they required this year) went over and you got the penalty for that.
The issue that my team is very upset about is the inconsistent or incompetent reffing. FIRST made a big deal this year about training refs and making them pass a test and yet the reffing was worse this year then any other. Next year the game either needs to be easier to ref, or the refs need to take an in depth course on training. Aside from inconsistency, there was a general lack of enforcement at a lot of events. This game was supposed to be non-impact and non-defensive; penalties were stressed on impact, pinning, impeding, etc. And we had refs who didn't call a robot getting hit while hurdling and then pinned up against the rack
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Unread 21-04-2008, 12:18
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

Build anything that is preceded by the phrase, "Its basically the same" it won't be...
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Unread 21-04-2008, 12:25
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

SATURDAY AWARDS/FINALS/CELEBRATION
  • The fact that the finals/awards ceremony ran over so long (AGAIN!) is unacceptable. Feedback about this has been delivered each year. Speeches, even by the heavy weights, need to be very short and sweet. The people sitting in the Dome "get it" so the same message does not need to be delivered over and over by everyone. Food for the teams at the "Celebration" is usually only available from 6:30-8:30 and those expensive tickets need to allow teams to have a full 3 hours at the event. But please don't take time away from honoring the teams. FIRST needs to take control of the schedule.
  • It took me almost 20 minutes, to enter the Park after a 10 minutes exit from the Dome (and I was lucky to have shortcuts leaving the Dome not available to the teams). All the teams around me were good sports but the crush of bodies could have been a disaster. There needs to be a more efficient queuing system. FIRSTers get team queuing!
  • Where the team was from and their name need to be up on the big screen along with their number when the award is announced.
  • I feel bad for all those teams that were kicked out of the club level due to "VIP seating" only to be replaced by other teams. The management of allowing the customers (the teams) to enter the stands and get a decent seat, without confused messages, should be a FIRST priority.
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Unread 21-04-2008, 12:35
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

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Originally Posted by David Noll View Post
This game was supposed to be non-impact and non-defensive; penalties were stressed on impact, pinning, impeding, etc. And we had refs who didn't call a robot getting hit while hurdling and then pinned up against the rack
Really. I don't recall anyone saying this was no-contact, no-defense. Not even the GDC.

Now, about the ref training--So you want last year's Curie-Einstein difference? At least they were pretty consistent. Pinning is legal for up to 6 seconds, so I don't see what's up there, unless it wasn't called after 6 seconds.

Again, my negative is the CMP timing. I was timing the closing ceremonies/finals. 5 SF matches in 2.5 hours is NOT acceptable! Short and sweet is better, in this case.
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Unread 21-04-2008, 15:20
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

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Really. I don't recall anyone saying this was no-contact, no-defense. Not even the GDC.

Now, about the ref training--So you want last year's Curie-Einstein difference? At least they were pretty consistent. Pinning is legal for up to 6 seconds, so I don't see what's up there, unless it wasn't called after 6 seconds.
I was very disappointed that the refs on Einstein called outside the bumper zone penalties against bots that were constantly pinned against a wall. The contact appeared unintended after watching replays and I doubt it could have been avoided. There were also pins where the defensive bot would back up 2-3 feet only to go right back in to pin without an impeding penalty. This happened to any bot, including the slow hurdlers like us.

I also had a huge problem with the announcer saying "N robot assessed 2 penalties for outside the bumper zone contact and 2 G37 penalties". Aren't those the same rules? <G37> encompasses a alot of situations, isn't it possible to be more specific? Who in their right mind knows what a G37 penalty is?
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Unread 21-04-2008, 15:46
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

I think that the inspectors should have some sort of training like the refs do. I inspected at 3 regionals and all of them had slightly different rulings which was frustrating.
I would also like to see the game animation displayed at the competition more frequently. This is an easy way to explain the game to visitors and it might be nice to have to playing by the VIP/volunteer check-in table.
I didn't like how some of the traditional FIRST songs, example "Thunderstruck", were no longer allowed to be played (even though they sometimes were).
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Unread 21-04-2008, 17:24
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

FIRST has always been safety concious. Requiring eye protection in the pits and on the fields for all students, visitors, and crew. More so in the last couple years with the addition of the Safety Captains, Safety Awards, and Safety Judges.

Why do they not enforce it with the official photographers then?

It seems like they need safety glasses the most... (I don't know about you, but I've never met a blind photograher)... along with hard hats. There was one lady this year who stood closer to the field than the refs (nearly getting hit by a couple robots that she did not see because she was looking through her camera at the other end of the field). When some of us on crew mentioned that she should be wearing safety glasses that close to the field she blew us off rudely. She also kept going into the player stations during matches (which I know some of them were not expecting), and even onto the field after a match before the head ref. cleared anyone to enter the field. One of the robots was even still moving when she hopped the gate.

The fact that FIRST did not enforce safety rules with people they actually pay to represent them makes me question what the message is that they are trying to send to the students... who were also out there with media passes taking pictures of their teams.
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Unread 21-04-2008, 23:09
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

I found that a disappointing aspect of the competition this year was the lack of enforcement of certain rules. In particular, the 80" rule, perhaps the biggest constraint this year in design was rarely enforced throughout the competition. Teams were occasionally penalized when they fell over and ended up being far out of the limit, however some designs were, when functioning normally, outside this limit. The fact that a yellow sticker was placed on the inspection tag, alerting the refs to the fact that the robot was capable of extending past the 80" was not enough. Rules like this, which are designed to specifically create a difficult design constraint (and thus make the game more complex and challenging) should be enforced on the highest order, as they are in essences why we play the game. No one expects to get away with a 140 pound robot that has a 40"X50" base. However, once the match starts, it seems that this concern for playing the game the way it was designed is lost. A team whose robot was ~87" long by diagonal measurement during normal (not fallen-over) game play, was never once penalized during a match. This leads to a more general disappointment in FIRST.

If/when such things happen, teams who are aware of this are put in a strange situation. Is it GP to report a rule violation by another team? Is there a way to do so that is GP, as well as officially acceptable? Can it be done efficiently? How will it affect the other team? Such questions are raised which have no real answer in the FIRST community/competition. An exception, Team 190 (Team 190 Legality Thread). Their robot had a unique hurdling technique which eventually was determined to be illegal after 2 regionals of acceptable play. There was a discussion on CD about their design and legality and it was all handled with care and professionalism. However, this is not usually the case, and a fear often arises that silences teams because they may be 'black-listed', if you will, for reporting these types of things. I feel it is FIRST's responsibility to design a system where a team can raise a legitimate concern about another team's robot without fear of any tarnish on their reputation. Centrally, it calls the question, "Is it alright to not report cheating?" No one wants to be the team that is always telling on other teams, but it is simply not fair to teams who took into consideration all of the rules when designing their robot.
On that note, those are my 2 cents, take them as you will. The season was otherwise great! I look forward to next year's game, and to a time when such situations will be resolved in a gracious and professional manner.
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Unread 21-04-2008, 23:31
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

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I found that a disappointing aspect of the competition this year was the lack of enforcement of certain rules. In particular, the 80" rule, perhaps the biggest constraint this year in design was rarely enforced throughout the competition. (...) A team whose robot was ~87" long by diagonal measurement during normal (not fallen-over) game play, was never once penalized during a match. This leads to a more general disappointment in FIRST.
I don't understand your point. There is nothing wrong with being more than 80" in any direction as long as the robot meets Rule R16:

Quote:
<R16> Once the MATCH has started, the ROBOT may assume a PLAYING CONFIGURATION that exceeds the size dimensions specified in Rule <R11>. While in the PLAYING CONFIGURATION, the ROBOT may expand up to a maximum horizontal dimension of 80 inches (e.g. all parts of the ROBOT must fit within an imaginary 80-inch-diameter upright cylinder). There are no height limits for a ROBOT in its PLAYING CONFIGURATION at any time after the start of the MATCH.
So, if that 87" long robot was diagonal in the cylinder, it would only violate <R16> if it was also protruding through the side of an imaginary cylinder 80" in diameter. The rule specifically says that a robot has no height limit, and could therefore be 160" high if that's what the team wanted. Were you saying that the 87" robot was at a shallow enough angle that it covered more than 80" on the floor?
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Unread 21-04-2008, 23:40
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

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I don't understand your point. There is nothing wrong with being more than 80" in any direction as long as the robot meets Rule R16:



So, if that 87" long robot was diagonal in the cylinder, it would only violate <R16> if it was also protruding through the side of an imaginary cylinder 80" in diameter. The rule specifically says that a robot has no height limit, and could therefore be 160" high if that's what the team wanted. Were you saying that the 87" robot was at a shallow enough angle that it covered more than 80" on the floor?
I can think of at least one robot that routinely violated the 80" rule (was more than 80 long in a horizontal plane) and was never penalized. Through all of the competitions I saw, the only time the penalty was called was when a robot fell over. That means that it was never looked for.

I don't blame the refs, they were way to busy doing other things to pay attention to this rule.
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Unread 21-04-2008, 12:49
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

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[/list]I think this is an easy thing to fix. Most people by then are hungry, tired, and want to get out of the seats. Why not move the giving of metals to teams at the wrap party right before the fireworks? Right there up on stage, with banners and trophies, then everyone can scream "GO FIRST!" and the fireworks will begin. Get Dean, Woodie, and everyone up on stage for it too.
Joe,

I don't believe any of the three teams on our alliance went to the wrap party. I know one team had dinner reservations and our team literally grabbed the medals and hopped on the bus due to arrangements already made with the coach company months in advance. We certainly did not expect to be on Einstein, much less to win, so to spring this on next year's teams may prove to be just as unsuccessful as it was for us this year.

I do think it's easy to fix, too - but I think the problem lies in the planning and length of the closing ceremonies/finals rather than in where the teams can be recognized.

I hope this is something FIRST will consider.
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Unread 21-04-2008, 13:12
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Re: Lesson Learned: The Negative

This may not be possible for a lower-cost program like FTC, but having schedules and results online would make for a VAST improvement. I had a team I was trying to watch, but I had zero information about when they'd be on. I didn't even know approximately how long the gap would be between their matches. In fact, I didn't even know how many matches they'd be playing. It really hurts the spectator friendliness of the program if you can't find out basic info like that.
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