Championship 2008 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please

[David Brinza]

Originally Posted by EricH

With 44 regionals next year and ~ 20 teams with a slot already, here's the math:
6 teams/regional*44 regionals +20=284 teams currently qualify through past performance/regional performance. (Next year)

So how long would it take to max out? Add 1 team per year (HoF addition) and run some numbers. I'm going to assume steady growth of 3 regionals per year. For the 2010-2012 seasons:
303
322
341
and the next year, we're over the current team limit. Or, how many more regionals will it take? At 3 a year, it takes 3 years, so 9-10 more regionals (after the 2009 season).

Not all teams will come. But, there still won't be a whole lot of room for non-qualifying teams.

So for the next 3-4 Championship Events, the current system would work. But after that, either a different qualification method (e.g. super-regionals that you get to through regionals) or more (or bigger) divisions would be necessary.

Six teams per regional is a worse-case scenario. In reality, there are teams that will win more than one regional, or hall-of-fame teams, past champions, CA and EI that will also win one or more regional. That could prolong the inevitable change in the Championship qualification criteria or format.

On the other hand, if FIRST's growth rate increases (400 new teams next year?), the change may occur even sooner. Another thread discusses possible new venues: could a requirement on the facility be the ability to accommodate ~700 teams, eight division fields + Einstein??

[sanddrag]

I hope this post doesn't go unnoticed in this large thread.

My main suggestion for improving the Championship next year deals with the FIRST Finale on Saturday night.

As a member of an Einstein team, I was very disappointed that we did not get to participate in the Finale party. By the time we finished matches, awards, closing, and packed up our stuff into the robot crate and van, we only barely had enough time left to catch the fireworks. It takes some of the fun out of doing so well in the competition when you arrive at the party to find there is no more food, no more drinks, everything closing, and everyone leaving. We felt like "this looks incredibly fun. I think next time we might as well not bother trying to win, because you forfeit all this." Either the Finale needs to go until midnight (with food until then as well, at least for Einstein teams) or there needs to be a separate gathering (until midnight) for the Einstein teams.

I absolutely loved the ban and enforcement on banners and flags being brought into the dome. When people are anxiously trying to see every detail of every match, it is simply rude how many teams park a flag or banner right in front. Seriously people, have some respect for those sitting behind you.

I didn't really think the ban on bottled water entering the dome was proper. Affordable access to water is (or at least should be) a basic human right. Bottled water should not be monopolized at this type of event. It shouldn't take someone being poor, not being able to afford the dome's water, being denied their own, and passing out on the floor for dehydration to make someone realize that people need water without restriction. Let us take it in. We aren't going to buy your $3 bottle of water even if you don't let us bring in our own. It's just absurd. It doesn't do anyone any good.

Another thing, let us all remember that Dean's homework was to get media attention this year. While wearing my media pass on the Dome floor, I was repeatedly singled out and hassled (on the border line of physical harassment) by certain FIRST officials, when I was causing no trouble and they clearly had other more critical responsibilities. This is not at all proper. When teams spend as much as they do in this competition, they ought to have the right to a) see it, b) photograph it, and c) celebrate it (as mentioned above). For any official or volunteer to pull rank on the teams and spit out a "this is the way it is and you have no recourse and we'll throw you out if this happens again" is not a good thing for the future of this program. This program exists and succeeds in large because of the teams. They know what they are doing. Welcome them, listen to them, respect them, consider their complaints, suggestions, and ideas.

Finally, something needs to be done about the saving seats issue. On Friday morning, I encountered three students saving an entire two rows, aisle to aisle. I show up with only myself and my bag, take two seats total, am told to move, tell them I will if and when the rest of their team comes, and to my astonishment they moved my things moved for me and I got an the evil stare for the rest of the day. I was in disbelief. There is no reason single or a handful of individuals should not be allowed a close seat when dozens upon dozens are empty.

If you want the seats, put your people in them. Otherwise they are up for grabs. End of story.

[darena]

The Championship should be air on basic cable or local TV so every one can see it. The last few years they broad cast the championship on NASA or just high lights on CNN. They should air it on ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, or PBS.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Finally, something needs to be done about the saving seats issue.

Amen. I get sick of explaining seat rules at regionals, and now I have to do it at Champs. I was especially concerned about a team that blocked the 25 best seats on Edison (from the first row back five rows) and didn't budge for two days, while using an average of less than half those seats at any given time. They were careful to leave a bunch of stuff on and around those unused seats, too, to guarantee no one else would sit there. It engendered a LOT of bad feeling from other teams.

Twice I was hassled about sitting down in a seat because it was "saved" -- once on Edison and once on one of the FRC fields. I hate to think how our guests would react to this. Maybe I'll volunteer to be "Official FIRST Seat Warden" next year.

[David Brinza]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

I absolutely loved the ban and enforcement on banners and flags being brought into the dome. When people are anxiously trying to see every detail of every match, it is simply rude how many teams park a flag or banner right in front. Seriously people, have some respect for those sitting behind you.
<snip>
Finally, something needs to be done about the saving seats issue. On Friday morning, I encountered three students saving an entire two rows, aisle to aisle. I show up with only myself and my bag, take two seats total, am told to move, tell them I will if and when the rest of their team comes, and to my astonishment they moved my things moved for me and I got an the evil stare for the rest of the day. I was in disbelief. There is no reason single or a handful of individuals should not be allowed a close seat when dozens upon dozens are empty.

If you want the seats, put your people in them. Otherwise they are up for grabs. End of story.

The business of banning flags explains a confrontation that occurred with our drive team (and several other teams, I suspect) with a member of security on Friday afternoon. He would not allow us to take our flag (on a flag pole) onto the floor of the dome. Other teams had their flags out there for the MC's in the early matches so, apparently, word came down from the top that flags waving around on the field before the matches were ruining the event for the folk in the stands. (Detect any sarcasm here?) The guard literally ran after one of our team members to force us to leave the flag behind. He then said wouldn't be responsible for watching the flag while we were in the dome. WHAT A CROCK! We torn the flag off of the pole, ungraciously dropped the pole on the floor and proceeded to our match. We recovered the pole after the match. On Saturday, we smuggled our flag onto the field to join the many teams with "illegal" flags on Galileo.

As far as saving seats, what's going to happen when the number of spectators grow significantly for FIRST events. I don't see how teams will be able to sit as a group (the drive teams and pit crews will need to fend for themselves to watch eliminations if they're not selected). This is something that FIRST will need to address soon, or things might start getting ugly. (Not all of the spectators will have a good grasp of GP).

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

I didn't really think the ban on bottled water entering the dome was proper.

I guess I missed that ban. I'm not sure any event anywhere could sustain a legal challenge on water. I have a whole soapbox speech about venues that 'require' you to buy water and the health code mandated water fountains are near useless to non-functional.

And I have a second speech on that issue from a sustainability point which would be really going in the wrong direction.

My opinion is 'call the cops'.

[dangerousdave]

Originally Posted by dlavery

The black tarp is installed in the Georgia Dome every spring. It stays up throughout the summer, and is usually removed just before the start of football season. The primary reason for the tarp is to keep sunlight filtering through the translucent fabric of the roof from completely overwhelming the air conditioning system and heating the Dome to the point of being uninhabitable. The tarp is usually installed a few weeks after the FIRST Championship, but it may be installed earlier if other Dome clients request it. This year the Arbonne Cosmetics show, which preceded the FIRST Championship in the Dome, paid a hefty sum (you don't want to know how much) to have the tarp installed early to create the right "lighting mood" for their show....-dave.

Thanks very much Dave for giving us the facts, a picture and ending our speculation. Some years I am in the GA Dome 10 times (we have a so called pro football team here) but I had never heard about the reason for the tarp.

Originally Posted by sanddrag

I didn't really think the ban on bottled water entering the dome was proper. Affordable access to water is (or at least should be) a basic human right. Bottled water should not be monopolized at this type of event. It shouldn't take someone being poor, not being able to afford the dome's water, being denied their own, and passing out on the floor for dehydration to make someone realize that people need water without restriction. Let us take it in. We aren't going to buy your $3 bottle of water even if you don't let us bring in our own. It's just absurd. It doesn't do anyone any good.

On Friday, I entered the Dome and right behind me were two ladies holding 1 bottle each of water. The attendant at the door suggested that they simply go back out, put the water in their handbags and reenter the gate which they did with no problem, so obviously there are exceptions to the rule.
Dave

[EricH]

Originally Posted by David Brinza

Six teams per regional is a worse-case scenario. In reality, there are teams that will win more than one regional, or hall-of-fame teams, past champions, CA and EI that will also win one or more regional. That could prolong the inevitable change in the Championship qualification criteria or format.

I agree that that's a worst-case scenario. However, I think that at the outside, 2 more years (above what I figured) would fill Championship to capacity by filling any empty slots created by double-qualifying or not showing up. So that's 2014. Not that far away, is it? If we don't come up with possible solutions now, we'll have to then. It's a lot easier to fix something before it breaks than after.

[jasper.s.jacobs]

Galileo finally got the win! congrats 1114, 217, 148

[ktbcantrell]

First off i thought GWCC and the Gerogia Dome did an excellent job of housing our ever growing WWF for smart people event...

One thing that would benefit all teams.. would be the addition of extra practice arenas or partial practice arenas (maybe 1 per division).. Luckily, our team was able to aquire one practice slot on two of the three days and many other teams wern't even able to recieve a single practice slot on the fields. Im not sure on the logistics of the issue but more practicing time would be a great addition to the Internationals...(for last minute tweaks )

Last thing.. at the practice field during one of our slots we found there was no track ball to practice with because ... "FIRST was not providing trackballs for the practice field." (what we were told) Fortunately we had brought our deflated trackball and were able to inflate it with 5 min to spare or so.. Im not sure if the provision of trackballs was announced or not before hand but we ended up deciding to give our track ball to the practice field for the remaining time in the Gerogia Dome for the other less fortunate teams who hadnt brought their track balls with them.

Overall it was another great FIRST INTERNATIONAL !!!

[KarenH]

Originally Posted by dlavery

The black tarp is installed in the Georgia Dome every spring. It stays up throughout the summer, and is usually removed just before the start of football season. The primary reason for the tarp is to keep sunlight filtering through the translucent fabric of the roof from completely overwhelming the air conditioning system and heating the Dome to the point of being uninhabitable. The tarp is usually installed a few weeks after the FIRST Championship, but it may be installed earlier if other Dome clients request it. This year the Arbonne Cosmetics show, which preceded the FIRST Championship in the Dome, paid a hefty sum (you don't want to know how much) to have the tarp installed early to create the right "lighting mood" for their show.

-dave

Dave, thanks for the info. and the picture.

I suppose it does no good for a mere spectator like me to complain, but when we're in the stands trying to take pictures of the matches, the Georgia Dome sans black tarps is the ONLY venue with enough light to get decent pictures. I was thrilled to be there in 2004 with a new digital camera, got lots of wonderful pictures from the stands--and was really upset the next year to find the whole roof blackened, and my pictures were just as dark and blurry as at the dingy old venues where the regionals are held.

I think we had all assumed the tarps were up in 2005 for the new CMU cams. It would sure be nice if FIRST could persuade the Dome officials to hold off on the tarps till after our competition.

**Off topic: Despite the many wonderful design features of the Georgia Dome, with its easy accessibility for spectators and that amazing roof fabric (I never can believe the whole thing weighs less than I do)--didn't it occur to the designers that a thin roof would make it into a summer bake oven?**

[Carol]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

II didn't really think the ban on bottled water entering the dome was proper. Affordable access to water is (or at least should be) a basic human right. Bottled water should not be monopolized at this type of event. It shouldn't take someone being poor, not being able to afford the dome's water, being denied their own, and passing out on the floor for dehydration to make someone realize that people need water without restriction. Let us take it in. We aren't going to buy your $3 bottle of water even if you don't let us bring in our own. It's just absurd. It doesn't do anyone any good.

And what is wrong with bringing an empty bottle with you and filling it at the event? Maybe I'm old, but I am from the days when bottled water was non-existent and everyone drank from water fountains. No one ever passed out from dehydration.

And for the security guards at the Dome, give them a break. With so many of them there will be different interpretations at different gates. They are human after all. It is not a high paying job and I bet they could easily lose their job if they allow exceptions. So be gracious and accommodate them even if you disagree. Gracious professionalism isn't just for behavior on the field.

And don't forget, next time, that judges do watch your team's behavior off the field. How would you feel if your team lost an award because a judge observed your fit of temper at the gate?

[TD78]

Originally Posted by dangerousdave

On Friday, I entered the Dome and right behind me were two ladies holding 1 bottle each of water. The attendant at the door suggested that they simply go back out, put the water in their handbags and reenter the gate which they did with no problem, so obviously there are exceptions to the rule.
Dave

I had a bottle of water in a cargo pocket in my shorts and walked in and out all day without a problem. I was very surprised though about not having my backpack searched...I thought in past years they had done that, but this year staff didn't seem to care. I could've brought in a case of water in that backpack if I wanted to.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by EricH

With 44 regionals next year and ~ 20 teams with a slot already, here's the math:
6 teams/regional*44 regionals +20=284 teams currently qualify through past performance/regional performance. (Next year)

So how long would it take to max out? Add 1 team per year (HoF addition) and run some numbers. I'm going to assume steady growth of 3 regionals per year. For the 2010-2012 seasons:
303
322
341
and the next year, we're over the current team limit. Or, how many more regionals will it take? At 3 a year, it takes 3 years, so 9-10 more regionals (after the 2009 season).

Not all teams will come. But, there still won't be a whole lot of room for non-qualifying teams.

So for the next 3-4 Championship Events, the current system would work. But after that, either a different qualification method (e.g. super-regionals that you get to through regionals) or more (or bigger) divisions would be necessary.

Originally Posted by David Brinza

Six teams per regional is a worse-case scenario. In reality, there are teams that will win more than one regional, or hall-of-fame teams, past champions, CA and EI that will also win one or more regional. That could prolong the inevitable change in the Championship qualification criteria or format.

On the other hand, if FIRST's growth rate increases (400 new teams next year?), the change may occur even sooner. Another thread discusses possible new venues: could a requirement on the facility be the ability to accommodate ~700 teams, eight division fields + Einstein??

The other alternative to this: Limit the number of regionals a team can enter, so that there will not be more regionals needed, and will not be a need for more spots at Championships. 44 regionals * 55(avg) teams per event means they can accomodate 2420 teams. That takes us through several more years, at least. I don't know that we'll get 400 additional teams per year; according to the annual report we have netted about 200 more teams per year for the past 3 or 4 years.

This is not an alternative that I or most people would like, but it is an alternative.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Carol

And what is wrong with bringing an empty bottle with you and filling it at the event? Maybe I'm old, but I am from the days when bottled water was non-existent and everyone drank from water fountains. No one ever passed out from dehydration.

As near as I could tell, there are NO drinking fountains in the Georgia Dome. At least I couldn't find one. Modern profit maximization at its finest. The Dodgers famously did this when they built Dodger Stadium, but back then it was regarded as a mistake and the team quickly added drinking fountains. I don't expect something so rational in this degraded age.