OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events

[zachjo]

when I was one of the students in the "waiting to get an award section" in front of Einstein I thought is was amazingly loud. The only thing I wanted was for the matches to get over so I could leave to a quieter place.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by OScubed

...
My feeling is that FIRST - as the sponsoring organization should be in charge of setting event standards for volume levels, which the regionals and the company in charge of putting on the event for the nationals would be required to comply with.
...

You are my new best friend

... isn't that all part of the fun, ...

For OSHA, for me and for countless other guests and participants, in a word, the answer is "No."

Blake

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by Mike Martus

AS part of Team 47 Safety process we did sound levels at the regionals as well as the Championship.

Mike,
I wish you had told me you were doing sound level measurements, I would have liked to participate in that. What were you using for instrumentation? Does your instrument average over time?

[OScubed]

Originally Posted by Pikat

I dont know if this is true for the other fields, but on Curie, the music/commentary wasn't too bad. However, the field sounds (like the starting sound, bell, ending buzzer, etc) were VERY loud. I think it was worse in the stands than on the competition floor because the bottom of the J shaped speakers point right at the front row of seats.

Agreed, but the sound levels at curie (at least as measured by others) were the loudest overall, and you still had to shout to each other to be heard in the stands when standing a couple feet apart. That is too loud for sustained periods.

[OScubed]

Originally Posted by robostangs548

I mean, isn't that all part of the fun, i think that it is pretty awesome working under a ton of pressure with the "hype" up music blaring in the background and the crouds cheering.... I would have to say, that without the loud music, the competitions would be much less interesting....

don't get me wrong. I'm 47 but I love the pumpin' techno as much as the next guy. I was probably the one someone had to keep telling to sit down instead of dancing. But I was doing it with my earplugs in because it was too loud for too long. It's not the loudness in and of itself that's the issue, it's volume and duration that make the magic for ear damage. Anytime you're over 90db (and the measurements show that happened frequently and at least a few times during the event continuously) you are doing damage to your ears - damage that NEVER HEALS. It's cumulative over your lifetime. My dad is nearly deaf from lifetime exposure to loud noises - he now wears hearing aids in both ears and cannot carry on a conversation in a room of people because of hearing loss - even with the aids. I don't want to end up like him, nor do I want anyone on my team, (or my son) to end up the same way.

There is such a thing as building to a crescendo - and these guys apparently haven't heard of that. They just put it on "freakin loud" and left it there all day. For short durations (under an hour at say 95-96 db it's actually ok to have it loud. But not for 2 days straight.

Furthermore - I for one think it's WAY more fun to be able to hear the cheers of my team and the other teams than to hear announcing, music and buzzer sounds that drown everything out.

[OScubed]

Originally Posted by zachjo

when I was one of the students in the "waiting to get an award section" in front of Einstein I thought is was amazingly loud. The only thing I wanted was for the matches to get over so I could leave to a quieter place.

Nice to hear it's not just us old farts

[OScubed]

Originally Posted by SmartAlek

Are you talking about the sound level in the pit area or out where the fields were?

I honestly think it would be too difficult to try to control the volume in the pits. You could barely hear the Pit Admins announcements. So I think it would be safe to guess that most of the sound came from people working on robots and talking. And I find it hard to imagine Safety people walking around from pit to pit asking people to keep their voices down or to stop using noisy tools on their robots...

I'm specifically talking about the stands. I never noticed the pits as being too loud frankly, at any of the events I've been to. And if they ARE too loud there, the proper response is - it's a noisy environment - ear protection is required. But that shouldn't be the case with the stands/bleachers where FIRST and the crew running sound control the volume.

[OScubed]

Originally Posted by Billfred

Lee,

In the absence of a better starting point, I'd suggest trying FRC Team Support (frcteams@usfirst.org). They might be able to point you in the right direction.

Done, awaiting a response.

[OScubed]

Originally Posted by David Brinza

He was lead? safety advisor in a couple of the SoCal Regionals and I saw him in the pits in Atlanta. I might be able to find his contact info through our regional director or local FTA.

Alternatively, you might pose your question in the FIRST Q&A forum for "FIRST Safety" under "Section 3 At the Events..." FIRST generally responds quickly to questions posted there and the answers reflect official FIRST policy.

Dave,

Is it possible this is labelled something else, or available only to team leaders or first members. I'm not seeing a Q&A forum, or a first safety subforum. Maybe I'm just old and dumb, or maybe I don't have rights. Could you paste a link to the forum for me?

Sorry for being dense....

Cheers,
Lee

[Pavan Dave]

Thank you for posting this. I am a student and I was on Curie field taking pictures and filming matches and I couldn't hear myself think sometimes so I brought some earplugs from the pits and handed them out to several people. I thought it was extremely loud, and I am finally happy that someone is bringing this up. I understand as a driver you you are "in the zone" because I was on the field at Lone Star, but as a media guy and a spectator it is deafening.

On that note, I occasional do tune up the techno but I don't think it is ever louder then what the hip-hop/rock is during a FIRST competition.


Pavan


.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by OScubed

Dave,

Is it possible this is labelled something else, or available only to team leaders or first members. I'm not seeing a Q&A forum, or a first safety subforum. Maybe I'm just old and dumb, or maybe I don't have rights. Could you paste a link to the forum for me?

Sorry for being dense....

Cheers,
Lee

http://forums.usfirst.org/forumdisplay.php?f=553

Only 1 member from your team should have posting privileges in this forum. You will likely have to talk to a team leader to figure out who it is.

[Mike Martus]

Al.... Team 47 was using a hand held unit that measured sound on a weighted basis (you can slow the reaction time of the meter). The unit did not store the readings just gave reading real time.

We kept a status of the current readings in our pit.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Mike,
I wish you had told me you were doing sound level measurements, I would have liked to participate in that. What were you using for instrumentation? Does your instrument average over time?

Al,

1311 was taking data using a calibrated ExTech data logging sound level meter and a calibrated Sper Scientifice sound pen. Next year we plan on being there with a dosimeter.

some of the data is here, it is from Saturday afternoon and doesn't reflect the other days, I will post that later.: http://www.kellrobotics.org/files/Sound_2008.pdf

Ed

Edit:

I just dug up some data taken at 2:15 to 2:30 in Curie - sound levels during matches were 88 to 95 dbA with peaks, during idle periods between matches 82 to 86 dbA, both cases A weighted with 1 second averaging intervals. Peaks for both periods at about 100 dbA.

What are my observations ? based on this data and the referenced report.

During Einstein - most excessive sound came from the crowd, rarely did we see an incident of the PA system with excessive level. That statement is tempered by the fact the fact that the crowd absorbs sound. This situation is comparable to a large football game. Even if you turned off the PA you would have to wear ear plugs.

During divisionals in Curie data appears that there is less crowd absorption, more PA, levels TOO HIGH. We don't have all the data that I'd like but it's a pretty solid bet that during prelims, and divisional finals the levels were way too high. Generally speaking at Atlanta and the regionals the PA is too hot during prelims and regional/divisional finals.

During Einstein I noticed something as we were recording data: It sound like a study in group dynamics behavior type stuff. After some speech or award presentation the crowd would begin clapping brightly then quickly taper to a long sustain clapp. The sustain always leveled at about 90 dbA, the threshold for discomfort. The level of the initial brightness was dependent on the thing being clapped for. The crowd was twice as loud for Dean Kamen as for everyone/everything else.

On the floor of the dome during divisional finals typical levels were 90dbA plus or minus 3, with constant peaking to 100 dbA. Even if levels were reduced floor officials and volunteers working all day should wear ear plugs.

At noon on Saturday our EHS people had a very long meeting with UL and they asked us to submit our report to UL and to FIRST. We will be doing that later this year and getting it to the right person. For the moment everyone, teams and FIRST, is taking a much needed break.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Ed,
About where in the stands were you seated? We were on the uper level and it was difficult to hear anything up there. Were the people around you making noise as well? I spent some time on the floor each of the three days. On Newton, it was actually hard to hear any of the crowd down behind the field but there was certainly a din I would have guessed at about 85. Getting closer to any of the reflective surfaces, of course, brought up the noise.
I thought the audio was very hot at Boilermaker. They were having other issues most of the weekend. Trying to get the audio guy to recognize that the directional antennas (for the mics), were pointed at the pit door and not the field was hard enough.
Most venues are under local jurisdictions which have noise level policy or exposure statutes but there is little enforcement until the neighbors complain. In my mind, the audio has been getting louder over the years.

Mike,
Do you remember the weighting that you were using? Ed was using "A" weighting it appears.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Ed,
About where in the stands were you seated? We were on the uper level and it was difficult to hear anything up there. Were the people around you making noise as well? I spent some time on the floor each of the three days. On Newton, it was actually hard to hear any of the crowd down behind the field but there was certainly a din I would have guessed at about 85. Getting closer to any of the reflective surfaces, of course, brought up the noise.
I thought the audio was very hot at Boilermaker. They were having other issues most of the weekend. Trying to get the audio guy to recognize that the directional antennas (for the mics), were pointed at the pit door and not the field was hard enough.
Most venues are under local jurisdictions which have noise level policy or exposure statutes but there is little enforcement until the neighbors complain. In my mind, the audio has been getting louder over the years.

Mike,
Do you remember the weighting that you were using? Ed was using "A" weighting it appears.

The sound data report has the seat location for stand data during Einstein and arena location for the dome floor during divisional eliminations. The data I reported above for div. elims. had locations of sections 111 to 114 rows 1 to 35, which is in Curie.

I don't have anywhere the quantity of data I'd like to have. This exercise was not only a scientific study but a training exercise in scientific studies, consequently we have not enough data.

It would be my recommendation that SLMs be placed at the most intense focal points of the speaker columns in the stands so that audio operators can properly maintain levels as conditions change.

Many decades ago I spent my teenage years working in a radio station and doing a lot of sound work in large arenas. It was great fun learning how the inflow/outflow of people can change the demand quantity of power delivered through a PA system. The amount of power needed in a dome full of people would crush your head in an empty arena. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but for those that are not familiar with these systems - you have to have an operator on station full time if there is an inflow/outflow of people, like during the prelims, and divisional finals. That is what we are paying the audio people for.


Ed