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Unread 30-04-2008, 17:25
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

Can you post some pics of the two cim dewalt gearbox?
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Unread 30-04-2008, 18:14
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

I would like to see pictures of the transmission as well. Pictures of Rush's would be great too.
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Unread 30-04-2008, 22:57
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

OOO *rubs hands together* my favorite subject!!!
Dewalts can hande A TON of abuse, they are designed to be used in 12 v cordless drills, used by professionals and craftsmen world wide, designed to take abuses and stress beyond the capabilities of one robot.
Team 418 has been using dewalt transmissions for 4 years now, and never had the transmission itself fail. we initially followed the NBD paper to the letter, but recently have taken to doing some things of our own including:
- change from reaming the carrier to machining a plate to fit on the planetary pins
- the carrier plate allows us to save time by not having to sand down the gearbox housing to a certain depth, just trim the CIM shaft down!

These things are bulletproof as long as they are thoughtfully put together (use the right screws, lock tight etc.) and we an recommend them to any other team looking for a cheap and easy multi speed transmission.

2 speed shifting is smooth, but 3 speeds gets a little tricky... but we have never actually seen a need for the 3rd speed (12:1, 4:1, 3:1 not much difference)

mounting them could not be much easier, a securely tightened shaft collar clamped around the gearbox holds the entire assembly very well.

118's V6 with the dewalt was a very powerful and innovative system that took full advantage of the compact and strong multi speed transmission that the dewalt offered. im not sure what part of their drive train broke during LSR finals that year though, rumor has it that it was the V6 though. Pavan, care to fill us in?

as a last testament to the robustness of the dewalt, our team has used the same model dewalt drills for about 5-6 years now and never had anything go bad besides the battery, and these things are still working great!
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Unread 30-04-2008, 23:08
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

Heres a question. If money did not matter as well as time, would you go with a Dewalt gearbox or a Andymark gearbox? Is there anything that would make the Dewalt better then say a Andymark supershifter?
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Unread 30-04-2008, 23:10
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

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Originally Posted by Lowfategg View Post
Heres a question. If money did not matter as well as time, would you go with a Dewalt gearbox or a Andymark gearbox? Is there anything that would make the Dewalt better then say a Andymark supershifter?
Depends on the application. 3-speed or 2? 3-speed, Dewalt. 2-speed, AndyMark.

I'd go with AndyMark if I was in a time crunch. Very little assembly, if any.
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Unread 30-04-2008, 23:15
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Depends on the application. 3-speed or 2? 3-speed, Dewalt. 2-speed, AndyMark.

I'd go with AndyMark if I was in a time crunch. Very little assembly, if any.
Lets say we were only looking at the Dewalt as a two speed since the person before me said its hard to get 3rd gear to work.
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Unread 30-04-2008, 23:47
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

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Originally Posted by Lowfategg View Post
Lets say we were only looking at the Dewalt as a two speed since the person before me said its hard to get 3rd gear to work.
DeWalts are a planetary transmission, and as a result have all the advantages and disadvantages of it. The biggest advantage is the much smaller size of the transmission. This is especially important in less than "traditional" drive designs where transmissions might not have as much space. Non-coaxial swerve systems often are forced to have the motors and any reductions (transmissions) rotate with the swerve modules. If a team were to opt for a multi-speed, non-coaxial swerve system, DeWalts would definitely be the way to go. Of course there's plenty of other scenarios where DeWalts would be advantageous for their size as well, that's just one extreme case.
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Unread 01-05-2008, 01:01
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
DeWalts are a planetary transmission, and as a result have all the advantages and disadvantages of it. The biggest advantage is the much smaller size of the transmission. This is especially important in less than "traditional" drive designs where transmissions might not have as much space. Non-coaxial swerve systems often are forced to have the motors and any reductions (transmissions) rotate with the swerve modules. If a team were to opt for a multi-speed, non-coaxial swerve system, DeWalts would definitely be the way to go. Of course there's plenty of other scenarios where DeWalts would be advantageous for their size as well, that's just one extreme case.
Being that I am new to FRC being from FTC I don't really know the advantages and disadvantages of a planetary transmission (since my FRC team did not play with them). From what I can see I love the idea of them and they seem like they would be very good. But from what your saying the Dewalts are good because of there size.
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Unread 01-05-2008, 01:26
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

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Originally Posted by Lowfategg View Post
Being that I am new to FRC being from FTC I don't really know the advantages and disadvantages of a planetary transmission (since my FRC team did not play with them). From what I can see I love the idea of them and they seem like they would be very good. But from what your saying the Dewalts are good because of there size.
In short, planetary gearboxes are a much more compact method of getting reductions than standard spur gears, but are far less efficient.
For instance compare the banebots transmission to the AndyMark toughboxes.
http://banebots.com/pc/P80A-nnnn-000...80A-43-0005-R2
http://andymark.biz/am-0145.html
While the banebot's transmissions had other issues in reliability that caused them to be unpopular, the differences in dimensions for gearboxes with essentially the same reduction are apparent. This is magnified even further when comparing a shifting transmission such as the AndyMarks to a DeWalt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spur_gear#Spur_gears
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_transmission
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Unread 01-05-2008, 01:47
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
In short, planetary gearboxes are a much more compact method of getting reductions than standard spur gears, but are far less efficient.
Ok thank you. Thats what I thought when I looked at planetary gearboxes.
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Unread 01-05-2008, 01:56
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

To the teams that usually use these transmissions, do you typically use servos or pneumatics to shift? I can see advantages/disadvantages to both...
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Unread 01-05-2008, 03:54
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Talking Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

Haven read the thread up until now, and being one of the mentors from team # 647 that wrote the white pape for NBD. It is in my opion that the Dewalts are the way to go for many reasons. Just a few: 1) compact, 2) durable, 3) versital, 4) No need for pnumatics and if I took the time to think up a few more from Afghanistan, I'd put them in. The drawback is that they consume battery power because you use some many motors. The shifting issue can be addressed with proper program for the shifting of the tansmission. For the most part we use the shifting only on the drive system. When we use them for other applications, we selected the gear ration that we need and left them there. No Problems. You have to be very precise on you application and setup when using the Dewalts with any motor combination. Do not be afraid to experiment with them. Only your team can decide the best way to apply them in every setup that you do. Not everyone will come up with the same solution. Have a Nice Day!
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Unread 14-05-2008, 15:34
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

Simple torsional stress calculation:
I couldn't find my old notes, but here is an example if you are direct drive with a 6" wheel that only the torque is causing stress (i.e. no bending load). The shear stress is equal 16*Torque/(pi*d^3) for a round shaft. So back to our 6" wheel example a scenario might go like this: because you are pushing against an opponent all of your robots weight is on one side and your wheels are slipping. Axle torque is the Normal force (weight) * traction coefficient (1.3 peak from team 494 testing)* radius of wheel 3" or about 500 in*lbs (132lbs*1.3*3in). You throw this into the equation above with a 5/16" diamter shaft (I think that is the dewalt output shaft minor diameter) and you get ......... a stress of 83 KSI. So that people get some perspective mild steel (1010) is around 26 KSi (hot rolled) 44 KSI (cold rolled). If you made your direct drive output shaft out of that material you would probably be able to drive your robot around just fine since the loads would be split with the other side. You wouldn't break a shaft until someone hit you. If you went with something like 1050 cold rolled you would begin yeilding a shaft when pushed. Do this a few times and eventually you will break a shaft. For fully reversed torque, it is common to use a factor of safety around 2 when you want to make sure you won't break that part. 170+KSI steel tends to be special grades of heat treated 4130.
Moral of the story for robotics: If your design starts requiring above 50KSI material you either want to rethink your design or be very careful with your design AND your material selection. I have often seen failed designs where the designer was designing for 1010 Cold Rolled (44 KSI), and part was made with 1010 Hot Roller (26 KSI). What was once a factor of safety of 2 goes to 1 and eventually the shaft fails.

This is a very simple version of a much more complicated shaft. In reality the D-shaped shaft has a stress concentration factor that makes the actual stress a lot higher than the what you would see in a round shaft. There are a lot of good books out there about machine design The one I have is "Machine Design: an integrated approach". If has a ton of examples that are easy to follow once you have a good understanding of what Stress and Strain are and how to apply loads. If you don't know what Stress and Straing are, read the book from cover to cover. This was the book for Purdue's Machine Design class while I was there. While figuring out the exact load scenario is best, simple calcs like the one above will tell you if you are in the ball park. I tend to use calculations like that to sort out should never fail, might fail, or garuanteed to break.
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Unread 27-05-2008, 17:44
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

A quick note on the Robonaut V6. We did put six motors through a dewalt in '07 and I was completely shocked that it handled the torque. It's important to mention that we did see a couple sun gear failures that year that seemed to be caused by hard impacts (sudden stopping of drive). We made the design easily replaceable since we knew we were pushing the limits of the gear box. Overall I think it was as reliable as most (but not all) drivetrains that year.

Another important point... we were only running the drive in one direction. If the gearbox had to withstand the back and forth seen with tank steer I have little doubt it would have failed.
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Unread 03-06-2008, 02:03
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Re: How much torque can the Dewalt Trannies take?

What about using omni's in the front and putting a dewalt to each of the 4 wheels left. Direct drive or shaft, sprocket and chain to the wheels??
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