Adult coach?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by boiler

we don't mind rewarding our engineers.

I wouldn't say being a part of the competition team is a "reward" for a particular person. You should have people in those spots that give the highest chance of rewarding the entire team with success in the competition. Remember, there are many sub teams and disciplines that students concentrate on while participating on a team. The competition is more than likely the only thing they share as a unit.

While our team used a student coach this year, my stance on the issue is the field coach should be a very mature, well spoken, and intelligent individual who can handle immense amounts of stress. 99% of the time this will be a mentor, but there are always students who can fit the bill. Pushing a student or adult who does not show these qualities into the field coach position (or any other competition team position for that matter) is like putting a square peg in a round hole and will most likely bring up issues as the season goes along.

[Paul Copioli]

On our team, we have 2 rules:

1. Paul is the drive coach.
2. If you think it should be someone else, see rule #1.

Seriously, though I have been the on field coach since 2000 and don't really see that changing in the near future.

[Tim Delles]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

On our team, we have 2 rules:

1. Paul is the drive coach.
2. If you think it should be someone else, see rule #1.

Seriously, though I have been the on field coach since 2000 and don't really see that changing in the near future.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

omg i couldn't stop laughing after i read this... haha

[Danny Diaz]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

On our team, we have 2 rules:

1. Paul is the drive coach.
2. If you think it should be someone else, see rule #1.

Seriously, though I have been the on field coach since 2000 and don't really see that changing in the near future.

That's the exact same thing on 418. Of course,

s/Paul/Tony Bertucci/

and that isn't going to change until he retires either.

-Danny

[Travis Hoffman]

As a shout out in favor of adult coaches - how many regional and championship Woodie Flowers Award winners are/have been drive team coaches?

Let me start the list...feel free to add to it

Ken Patton
Dave Verbrugge - ?? Someone help me out here - I swear that was Dave coaching 67 in that 1999 Philly video I watched on 121's website. That was before my time.
Andy Baker
Paul Copioli

*******

Karthik Kanag...asa...ba....zzzz.....
Derek Bessette
JVN
Chris Fultz

These are but a few.

Apparently effective communicators make good coaches too. Who knew?

Also, the opposite it true - I think coaching can help develop communication and other skills that help adults improve as mentors.

[Matt C]

All 4 teams I've been involved with have used Adult mentors (3 used teachers) as the coach.

[zivo123]

I am the coach on my team.
Personally, I think i did a pretty good job, and that every team has at least one student capable of doing a good job as a coach. I believe these students should be given the cance to do that. However, things are pretty different in the Israel regional (where i haven't seen even one adult coach).

[OScubed]

First I am a relatively new mentor on our team, and don't know all the ins and outs. I speak for myself - not for the other mentors or team members. My reaction to this thread is:

Wow. I guess that makes 1511's all student drive team somewhat of an anomaly. IMHO building a great drive TEAM is the mentor's responsibility - the on-field coach is part of that team. That's just my opinion - but in 1511 we had an awesome team of drivers and coaches, and a backup team in case someone fell ill or was injured. Every member of the drive team must pass - with a 100% score - a test on the rules - and the coach was definitely the best at that knowledge. This was in addition to the other requirements they had to meet. They have to apply with a resume and defend their qualifications to the mentors.

But the whole idea of FIRST (imho again) is to mold our future leaders, scientists and technologists. Yes it's a competition - but not one that should sacrifice the win for allowing a student to feel the achievement of leading that win.

Part of being a leader is learning auto-didactically - on your own, under pressure by making mistakes and learning from them. How can a student do that if they have a mentor being on the on-field team? It becomes a mentor lead team, rather than a student lead team. We want to build great LEADERS. Our current coach has been involved for 3 years and is just a junior and he will be senior next year. It's his job to coach and build his replacement from the freshmen, sophmores and juniors on the team, and to bring them up to speed (with the mentors help) to transition the drive team to a new coach next year.

I guess if you had a small enough, or new enough team that you just haven't yet developed the depth to have a fully student drive team - I could see a mentor stepping in, as they trained up a new coach for the next year for one, maybe 2 years. But I stlll think the kids will learn faster and better under exactly the pressure described above. They will make mistakes - but that's what the process is about.

This organization isn't just about winning a competition - it's about building kids self confidence, leadership skills, team skills and engineering capabilities. How can they do that if an adult does it for them?

[SL8]

Originally Posted by OScubed

But I stlll think the kids will learn faster and better under exactly the pressure described above. They will make mistakes - but that's what the process is about.

This organization isn't just about winning a competition - it's about building kids self confidence, leadership skills, team skills and engineering capabilities. How can they do that if an adult does it for them?

I don't think having a mentor drive coach is having an "adult do it for them".
Part of building good leaders comes from the background. The majority of people are not just going to lead. In order to lead well, you have to fail at least once, and learn from it. Mentors help here. Truly, you can mentor on the field just as much as in the pit.

[EricH]

The teams I work with are pretty small. 330 typically has around 10 students, of whom 3 are on drive and the rest are scouting. Mentors also scout during breaks.

1135 is simply carrying over from FTC. They choose to have a student on the field as coach. While a relatively small team, they are pretty much all student-run. So having a student coach is a logical continuation.

I'm with SL8. Having an adult coach is not having an adult do it for you. On a good drive team, it's having an adult do it with you.

[Chris Fultz]

other than a few off-season events, 234 has always had an adult mentor as field coach. it is always an experienced mentor.

one of the keys, in my view, is consistency. except in a rare circumstance, we do not switch anyone on the drive team once the season starts. it is important that the four people learn to communicate and anticipate each other. we talk strategy, other robots, review what we did in a match, etc. on the way to and from the field. we try to find a group of 4 that know the game, the strategy, the robot, and can also work together as a team.

in past years, the coach and some other positions were 'rotated' or used as rewards. it was a mess, because of small mistakes that were made with a new coach or new human player that the experienced team had already worked out. someone just stepping in is more likely to make the small mistakes that lead to penalties. changing coaches was also tough on the driver / operator because they get used to a certain person and level of communication during tha match, and if it suddenly changes it can throw them off. by "rewarding" someone, we actually hurt our team and our alliance from an inconsistent level of play.

[rdlevy1215]

Our team, Team 1676, has always had all 4 "Drive Team" members be pre-college students. The only time we went to an adult mentor was in our second year (Aim High) when our student Coach was feeling ill, and we needed someone who knew the game inside and out.

[Ken Patton]

Maybe its not so much adult versus student, but rather having someone coaching who has experienced the game, the strategy-building, the robot-building, and the communication and alliance-building. Adults have probably had more opportunities to do that. But there are definitely high school and college students who are building up that experience.

Being able to watch Derek Bessette, Paul Copioli, and JVN on one championship alliance this year was pretty legendary and entertaining. Nobody is more prepared than those guys. It was as much fun watching the people as it was watching the bots.

What is amazing is the people who have gone full-circle as drivers and coaches - high school, college, then as professionals (remember we get to turn pro when we graduate from college!). I think of people like JVN and Rob Jenkins and Anthony Lapp. Then there are college and even high school students who you know will be super-pros: Dan Kimura and Dylan Gramlich outcoach the pros now.

What a game! Someone should make a TV show about this stuff!

[Waynep]

If you look at 6 teams that made it to the Einstein this year, all 6 of them had an adult coach behind the glass. There are many advantages to having an adult coach.

I think having an adult coach on the field gives the mentors an opportunity to have control over a teams actions on the field, teach them sportsmanship, and how to be humble competitors. We all work hard for our teams reputations, and we don't want them tainted by others because of overzealous actions in the heat of battle. Having maturity and experience giving directions is greatly beneficial. A successful coach analyzes the entire field/game and does not just focus on his/her robot. Communication skills are important to as pointed out earlier in the thread. You don't win unless you can coordinate your alliance to perform as a unit rather than individuals. These are often tasks that are difficult for student coaches to master, but a student driver can learn these skills from having the guidance of a responsible adult coach.

As abrasive as Paul Copioli can be as sometimes (j/k) I learned so much from having him as a coach and would not be where I am in FIRST or my coaching career without him. As a student Paul inspired me, he lit my competitive fire, and he never made me question that he belonged there. I've continued to learn lessons from other adult coaches that are on the top of their game: Brendan 16, Shaun 25, Andy 45, Kenny 67, Dave 103, Raul 111, Mike and Steve 375, Derek 1114 etc.... Some of the lessons learned are about how to give your team that competitive edge, but a lot of it is watching their interactions with students/other teams and the lessons that they try to impart. For all the students on driveteams I urge you to pay attention to the adult coaches that are out there; there are a lot of things to be learned.

It's important to remember that MENTORS want to be a part of the robot action on the field too. A lot of us are competitive big kids. These mentors have donated countless hours working with the students and on the robots. These adult coaches want to play on the field in the position allowed by the rules. So students and teams who advocate "students only" please be open minded and respectful to these adults they've earned their rights to be on the field.

-wayne

[pufame]

Originally Posted by Waynep

If you look at 6 teams that made it to the Einstein this year, all 6 of them had an adult coach behind the glass. There are many advantages to having an adult coach.

We all work hard for our teams reputations, and we don't want them tainted by others because of overzealous actions in the heat of battle. Having maturity and experience giving directions is greatly beneficial. A successful coach analyzes the entire field/game and does not just focus on his/her robot. Communication skills are important to as pointed out earlier in the thread.

...You don't win unless...

First off, I don't see how showing that 6 teams on Einstein had mentor coaches has ANYTHING to do with the argument at hand. So they may have had a successful year. Not that I'm accusing any of these teams of doing this and I really respect what those students on those teams have managed to accomplish, sure if we really wanted to have a successful year then it would have been easy to have professional trained engineers run the entire team. But, success on the field isn't what it is about, is it?

As to having student coaches "crack under pressure" or ruin the team reputation is completely and totally bogus. I have worked with dozens of different student coaches, not once did I ever see any of them lose focus, look only at their robot, or do any other action that made their team perform to less than their potential. In addition to this, even if the student coach were to crack under pressure, isn't FIRST the program where you want the student to learn how to cope with pressure? The students that coach these teams will presumably be some of the premier engineers in the United States in the coming years, would you rather have them learn to deal with pressure when they are competing in a high school robotics competition, or when engineering a military helicopter?

...FIRST isn't about winning...

Honestly, as a student working with students, sure we were all bummed when things didn't work out on the field, but never did it make us wish we had more of it done for us. We took this experience and made our next match that much better, and the match after that even better, and then our educations and careers after that the best they could possibly be.

I am not trying to attack any team, or anyone. I simply want as many students as possible to get the experience from FIRST I have been able to receive.