Adult coach?

[zivo123]

I am the coach on my team.
Personally, I think i did a pretty good job, and that every team has at least one student capable of doing a good job as a coach. I believe these students should be given the cance to do that. However, things are pretty different in the Israel regional (where i haven't seen even one adult coach).

[OScubed]

First I am a relatively new mentor on our team, and don't know all the ins and outs. I speak for myself - not for the other mentors or team members. My reaction to this thread is:

Wow. I guess that makes 1511's all student drive team somewhat of an anomaly. IMHO building a great drive TEAM is the mentor's responsibility - the on-field coach is part of that team. That's just my opinion - but in 1511 we had an awesome team of drivers and coaches, and a backup team in case someone fell ill or was injured. Every member of the drive team must pass - with a 100% score - a test on the rules - and the coach was definitely the best at that knowledge. This was in addition to the other requirements they had to meet. They have to apply with a resume and defend their qualifications to the mentors.

But the whole idea of FIRST (imho again) is to mold our future leaders, scientists and technologists. Yes it's a competition - but not one that should sacrifice the win for allowing a student to feel the achievement of leading that win.

Part of being a leader is learning auto-didactically - on your own, under pressure by making mistakes and learning from them. How can a student do that if they have a mentor being on the on-field team? It becomes a mentor lead team, rather than a student lead team. We want to build great LEADERS. Our current coach has been involved for 3 years and is just a junior and he will be senior next year. It's his job to coach and build his replacement from the freshmen, sophmores and juniors on the team, and to bring them up to speed (with the mentors help) to transition the drive team to a new coach next year.

I guess if you had a small enough, or new enough team that you just haven't yet developed the depth to have a fully student drive team - I could see a mentor stepping in, as they trained up a new coach for the next year for one, maybe 2 years. But I stlll think the kids will learn faster and better under exactly the pressure described above. They will make mistakes - but that's what the process is about.

This organization isn't just about winning a competition - it's about building kids self confidence, leadership skills, team skills and engineering capabilities. How can they do that if an adult does it for them?

[SL8]

Originally Posted by OScubed

But I stlll think the kids will learn faster and better under exactly the pressure described above. They will make mistakes - but that's what the process is about.

This organization isn't just about winning a competition - it's about building kids self confidence, leadership skills, team skills and engineering capabilities. How can they do that if an adult does it for them?

I don't think having a mentor drive coach is having an "adult do it for them".
Part of building good leaders comes from the background. The majority of people are not just going to lead. In order to lead well, you have to fail at least once, and learn from it. Mentors help here. Truly, you can mentor on the field just as much as in the pit.

[EricH]

The teams I work with are pretty small. 330 typically has around 10 students, of whom 3 are on drive and the rest are scouting. Mentors also scout during breaks.

1135 is simply carrying over from FTC. They choose to have a student on the field as coach. While a relatively small team, they are pretty much all student-run. So having a student coach is a logical continuation.

I'm with SL8. Having an adult coach is not having an adult do it for you. On a good drive team, it's having an adult do it with you.

[Chris Fultz]

other than a few off-season events, 234 has always had an adult mentor as field coach. it is always an experienced mentor.

one of the keys, in my view, is consistency. except in a rare circumstance, we do not switch anyone on the drive team once the season starts. it is important that the four people learn to communicate and anticipate each other. we talk strategy, other robots, review what we did in a match, etc. on the way to and from the field. we try to find a group of 4 that know the game, the strategy, the robot, and can also work together as a team.

in past years, the coach and some other positions were 'rotated' or used as rewards. it was a mess, because of small mistakes that were made with a new coach or new human player that the experienced team had already worked out. someone just stepping in is more likely to make the small mistakes that lead to penalties. changing coaches was also tough on the driver / operator because they get used to a certain person and level of communication during tha match, and if it suddenly changes it can throw them off. by "rewarding" someone, we actually hurt our team and our alliance from an inconsistent level of play.

[rdlevy1215]

Our team, Team 1676, has always had all 4 "Drive Team" members be pre-college students. The only time we went to an adult mentor was in our second year (Aim High) when our student Coach was feeling ill, and we needed someone who knew the game inside and out.

[Ken Patton]

Maybe its not so much adult versus student, but rather having someone coaching who has experienced the game, the strategy-building, the robot-building, and the communication and alliance-building. Adults have probably had more opportunities to do that. But there are definitely high school and college students who are building up that experience.

Being able to watch Derek Bessette, Paul Copioli, and JVN on one championship alliance this year was pretty legendary and entertaining. Nobody is more prepared than those guys. It was as much fun watching the people as it was watching the bots.

What is amazing is the people who have gone full-circle as drivers and coaches - high school, college, then as professionals (remember we get to turn pro when we graduate from college!). I think of people like JVN and Rob Jenkins and Anthony Lapp. Then there are college and even high school students who you know will be super-pros: Dan Kimura and Dylan Gramlich outcoach the pros now.

What a game! Someone should make a TV show about this stuff!

[pufame]

Originally Posted by OScubed

But the whole idea of FIRST (imho again) is to mold our future leaders, scientists and technologists. Yes it's a competition - but not one that should sacrifice the win for allowing a student to feel the achievement of leading that win.

As a student coach for the past 2 years (this past year being my last as I am graduating), I am a strong advocate for student coaches, and I find it refreshing to read a post from a mentor supporting student coaches.

I know that as a student I have gained so much more from the FIRST program as a coach than I would have if I remained lead strategist (as I was my first 2 years on the team). I know that the experience I gained working with my team (pit crew, scouting, programming etc. - which are all also student run btw), and cooperating with other teams on the field has greatly enhanced my potential as an engineer in the future. I believe every student should have a chance at this opportunity.

As for the argument that I've read about "putting a mentor on the field to give the greatest chance of reward through success", who's success is it if the only variable in winning or losing is the student or mentor on the field? If it is the mentor that makes the difference, should the students really feel all that much better about a win than a loss? If a win is accomplished only because a mentor is on the field, I don't see that as a win, I see that as a lost opportunity for a student to learn from an experience.

Finally, there is one exception to the best thing for the team to have a student on the field is if the drive team is new or the team is to small that a mentor needs to be on the field as a necessity for the team to function. That being said I've been to regionals with 50+ students on teams, where I see a mentor coach working with other mentor coaches on the alliance, and I know that one of the students sitting scouting in the stands, or handing out buttons in the pits, or waiting for the pizza to arrive, could be on the field gaining experience they will need in their future careers as engineers.

-- PS, while I don't at all agree with choosing a mentor or student as coach based on how good it will make the team, I may as well point out that in my first regional as coach in 2007 our team was the #1 seed for the first time in team history (we ended up going on to win the regional), and this past year I coached an almost entirely new drive team where we were picked up as the first choice in alliance selection at our first regional - not to boast myself, I had relatively little to do with it, it was the evolution of the team and the maturing of the students as professionals in each of their leadership roles that allowed these successes to happen.

[Waynep]

If you look at 6 teams that made it to the Einstein this year, all 6 of them had an adult coach behind the glass. There are many advantages to having an adult coach.

I think having an adult coach on the field gives the mentors an opportunity to have control over a teams actions on the field, teach them sportsmanship, and how to be humble competitors. We all work hard for our teams reputations, and we don't want them tainted by others because of overzealous actions in the heat of battle. Having maturity and experience giving directions is greatly beneficial. A successful coach analyzes the entire field/game and does not just focus on his/her robot. Communication skills are important to as pointed out earlier in the thread. You don't win unless you can coordinate your alliance to perform as a unit rather than individuals. These are often tasks that are difficult for student coaches to master, but a student driver can learn these skills from having the guidance of a responsible adult coach.

As abrasive as Paul Copioli can be as sometimes (j/k) I learned so much from having him as a coach and would not be where I am in FIRST or my coaching career without him. As a student Paul inspired me, he lit my competitive fire, and he never made me question that he belonged there. I've continued to learn lessons from other adult coaches that are on the top of their game: Brendan 16, Shaun 25, Andy 45, Kenny 67, Dave 103, Raul 111, Mike and Steve 375, Derek 1114 etc.... Some of the lessons learned are about how to give your team that competitive edge, but a lot of it is watching their interactions with students/other teams and the lessons that they try to impart. For all the students on driveteams I urge you to pay attention to the adult coaches that are out there; there are a lot of things to be learned.

It's important to remember that MENTORS want to be a part of the robot action on the field too. A lot of us are competitive big kids. These mentors have donated countless hours working with the students and on the robots. These adult coaches want to play on the field in the position allowed by the rules. So students and teams who advocate "students only" please be open minded and respectful to these adults they've earned their rights to be on the field.

-wayne

[GaryVoshol]

It seems to me the arguments being made here are very similar to those in the "mentor vs student build" threads.

[AndyB]

As a college team that mentors local high schools, we end up with a college student coaching.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

It seems to me the arguments being made here are very similar to those in the "mentor vs student build" threads.

It was not my intention to create another one of those threads. I hope the continuing discussions do not devolve into one of those threads.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Wildstang has always had an adult coach. We believe very strongly in a team with mentors and students working side by side. Raul has been the coach for many years and is arguably one of the best strategists in the game.

[Tim Delles]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

On our team, we have 2 rules:

1. Paul is the drive coach.
2. If you think it should be someone else, see rule #1.

Seriously, though I have been the on field coach since 2000 and don't really see that changing in the near future.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

omg i couldn't stop laughing after i read this... haha

[Brad Voracek]

This is a heartstrung, tough issue for my team (well... myself really). I've been an operator for the past two years, and this year I was the driver for our robot. First off being on the drive team period is a tough job, filled with stress, and you need to be working with people who all work well with each other, and are willing to listen to each other and take criticism. I've had the opportunity to coach some matches at scrimmages, and my take on it is that the driver/operator are focusing mostly on their robot and what they are supposed to be doing, while the coach is focusing on the entire field, all the robots, and relaying the big picture of what is going on to the two of them.

For my first two years we had a college student coach, who I loved, he had experience on the field and had been coach since he was on the team as a student. He was always familiar with the rules (something I pride myself with now) and he made sure to communicate with the other coaches on our alliance and give the big picture, what our tasks should be at a certain moment, and let the nuances of how to do it go on to the drive team. This I feel is the best way to effectively use your drive team resources, and get the best out of everyone. One of my favorite things about being on the drive team is about being able to work with the other coaches, the other teams. A top moment of mine last year in atlanta was when we was allianced with 111, Wildstang, and their coach (Raul) knew exactly what was going on (he also happened to be an adult). Although they may not remember the alliance to me it was a learning experience. The ability to have coaches work with each other is a huge factor.

This year our manufactoring team 'leader', a student, was absolutely against having a non-student coach, so guess who filled the role? Himself, who I don't feel was qualified for the position. I don't want to bash on my team, he had good intentions, but since he was in a position of power and wanted to do it I don't think he looked at all of his resources to the fullest, and it really wasn't his decision in the first place, but that's another issue with my team for another thread and another day.

To get back to the point, which I think has been said in this thread already, I think it should be someone who is familiar with the robot, the rules, and is an effective communicator. I don't think whether this person is a student or not is the main issue, but it just happens that adults who are completely enthralled with the ideas and purpose of FIRST tend to have the understanding, experience, and the skills for the coaching position. Hopefully whether they are student or not is not a factor into them being coach.