Adult coach?

[GaryVoshol]

It seems to me the arguments being made here are very similar to those in the "mentor vs student build" threads.

[AndyB]

As a college team that mentors local high schools, we end up with a college student coaching.

[Brad Voracek]

This is a heartstrung, tough issue for my team (well... myself really). I've been an operator for the past two years, and this year I was the driver for our robot. First off being on the drive team period is a tough job, filled with stress, and you need to be working with people who all work well with each other, and are willing to listen to each other and take criticism. I've had the opportunity to coach some matches at scrimmages, and my take on it is that the driver/operator are focusing mostly on their robot and what they are supposed to be doing, while the coach is focusing on the entire field, all the robots, and relaying the big picture of what is going on to the two of them.

For my first two years we had a college student coach, who I loved, he had experience on the field and had been coach since he was on the team as a student. He was always familiar with the rules (something I pride myself with now) and he made sure to communicate with the other coaches on our alliance and give the big picture, what our tasks should be at a certain moment, and let the nuances of how to do it go on to the drive team. This I feel is the best way to effectively use your drive team resources, and get the best out of everyone. One of my favorite things about being on the drive team is about being able to work with the other coaches, the other teams. A top moment of mine last year in atlanta was when we was allianced with 111, Wildstang, and their coach (Raul) knew exactly what was going on (he also happened to be an adult). Although they may not remember the alliance to me it was a learning experience. The ability to have coaches work with each other is a huge factor.

This year our manufactoring team 'leader', a student, was absolutely against having a non-student coach, so guess who filled the role? Himself, who I don't feel was qualified for the position. I don't want to bash on my team, he had good intentions, but since he was in a position of power and wanted to do it I don't think he looked at all of his resources to the fullest, and it really wasn't his decision in the first place, but that's another issue with my team for another thread and another day.

To get back to the point, which I think has been said in this thread already, I think it should be someone who is familiar with the robot, the rules, and is an effective communicator. I don't think whether this person is a student or not is the main issue, but it just happens that adults who are completely enthralled with the ideas and purpose of FIRST tend to have the understanding, experience, and the skills for the coaching position. Hopefully whether they are student or not is not a factor into them being coach.

[Billfred]

1618 has always used an adult coach during my tenure. Both years, we've had a small group of largely inexperienced kids; as a result, I tend to provide more coaching abilities without tying up our more scarce resources (read: kids) that tend to be more skilled elsewhere.

[Madison]

I've been the coach for nine of the ten seasons I've spent with FIRST. My first year, I was a high school senior, but have been in that role as a mentor ever since. I did not coach in 2004 -- the only year to date I've not attended a competition since 1999.

I don't feel like this, particularly, means our team lacks depth or that we're not doing everything we can to inspire the students.

As an adult in this role, it's my responsibility to do much more than coach the team to a win whenever I can. I'm there to act as a buffer between my kids and other teams -- adult coaches can be intimidating, so I'm there to intimidate right back.

I also act as a mediator between the drive team and the rest of the group. I am not stressed by competition -- gross incompetence not withstanding -- and can protect the kids from a lot of the criticism and backseat driving that can sometimes occur after a match. That said, I don't sugarcoat my opinion of their performance. In Atlanta, I had to tell our driver that he'd played the worst defense that I've ever seen in all of my ten years.

I'm there to make sure that the criticism is taken constructively and to make sure that they move on after a loss -- though we're working on eliminating those entirely. I don't want the kids to beat themselves up over things like that -- it's not worth putting in all of the effort, resources and time to come to a competition and not enjoy yourself, regardless of how well you do on the field.

Above all, I take my job as a coach seriously and do everything I can to be prepared for a match -- but no matter what happens -- I'm there to make sure the kids have fun and are treated fairly. We're working to provide the experience of competing in this "Superbowl of Smarts" to the kids and one of my biggest roles in that is alleviating tension.

The students on our team get along terrificly, but I'd still be a bit worried that leaving them on their own during stressful competition could lead to unneeded tension and additional stress -- and those things do very little to further our efforts toward inspiration.

[Molten]

From my experience:

If you give a mentor a job, you are taking it from a student. If we have a teacher weld, it is taking it from a student who can weld. The only time we have a mentor working, is if there are safety reasons(the school complains) or if the only student that can do that job is busy with a different job. I agree with some of you when you say that the Adult Coach is working 'with' the drive team. However he is only working with the 3 kids left on the field. What about the kid that could be the Coach? He got replaced. He is working with three of the kids, but he is working for one of the kids.

A little story:
Have any of you played sports when you were little? I did, I used to play soccer. There was always the parent on the sidelines yelling at the kids and telling them what to do. We didn't enjoy this guy yelling at us. In fact, I don't care if he was right. Maybe I did miss something that would have helped my team to win. The only thing is, that my team was not there just to win. We was there to have fun. Any time you put an adult on the field, you are just taking a chance of taking the fun away. I have seen many adult coaches yelling on the field, I have yet to see a student coach yelling on the field. I am not asking you to have a student on the field necesarily, just try to make sure that whoever you choose to put out there is not taking away from the fun.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Molten

From my experience:

If you give a mentor a job, you are taking it from a student. If we have a teacher weld, it is taking it from a student who can weld. The only time we have a mentor working, is if there are safety reasons(the school complains) or if the only student that can do that job is busy with a different job. I agree with some of you when you say that the Adult Coach is working 'with' the drive team. However he is only working with the 3 kids left on the field. What about the kid that could be the Coach? He got replaced. He is working with three of the kids, but he is working for one of the kids.

A little story:
Have any of you played sports when you were little? I did, I used to play soccer. There was always the parent on the sidelines yelling at the kids and telling them what to do. We didn't enjoy this guy yelling at us. In fact, I don't care if he was right. Maybe I did miss something that would have helped my team to win. The only thing is, that my team was not there just to win. We was there to have fun. Any time you put an adult on the field, you are just taking a chance of taking the fun away. I have seen many adult coaches yelling on the field, I have yet to see a student coach yelling on the field. I am not asking you to have a student on the field necesarily, just try to make sure that whoever you choose to put out there is not taking away from the fun.

I have seen many students and adults yelling on the field. If you do not agree with "angry adult" coaches, I think everyone here would agree with your point, but I don't see how a student yelling is more beneficial.

But, I think these types of coaches are few and far between. Most of the mentor coaches I have come in contact with have been very respectable people, offering insight and inspiration not only to their kids, but the kids on all of the teams they work with as well.

If you don't believe me, just ask my drivers what they think of guys like Tim Baird. I have heard nothing but good things from them all year about working with him in Hartford.

I've seen them [drivers] adapt their play style based on what some of the mentor coaches have told them, and seem them 'keep it cool' when mentors were involved in the competition.

[dtengineering]

We've always had student coaches on the field for every match. It is just something that seems to work with our team. With a different team... with a different robot... or in a different situation, we would do it differently. I am really glad that FIRST gives teams the choice to use either students or adults in this role.

What I would really like to see, however, (and maybe this goes on at off-season events) is a mentor drive team vs. mentor drive team match... I think after a season of receiving "helpful tips" from us mentors, the students might enjoy seeing how closely we followed our own advice! And the mentors might have a better appreciation of exactly how challenging driving the machine and sticking to strategy in competition really is. I mean... it looks pretty easy from the stands....

Jason

[Don Wright]

...FIRST isn't about winning...

You're right...FIRST isn't, but the FIRST Robotics Competition is. Otherwise it would be called the FIRST Robotics Get Together With Other Teams and Show Off Our Cool Stuff Event.

Have any of you played sports when you were little? I did, I used to play soccer.

I bet there was an adult coach though that was running the team...

[pufame]

Originally Posted by Don Wright

You're right...FIRST isn't [about winning], but the FIRST Robotics Competition is [about winning]. Otherwise it would be called the FIRST Robotics Get Together With Other Teams and Show Off Our Cool Stuff Event.

FIRST, The FIRST Robotics Competition, or any other FIRST program is not about winning. I'm sure I could spend my next two weeks finding hundreds of quotes from Dean, Woodie, and Paul stating this.

When we go to a regional or nationals, my team and I compete as hard as we can not to get mass produced medals, not to get congratulated on ChiefDelphi, not to boost our own egos, but to get as much out of the experience as we can.

With all the variables in team size, funds, mentor involvement, and straight out luck - its not as if the team that works the hardest will always win the competition. The fact that some teams cannot win the competition because they are at such a disadvantage through no fault of their own, yet they still come to compete against the more advantaged teams (and still get just as great if not better experience) is a testament to how well the FIRST Robotics Competition accomplishes what its about - Inspiring students in science and technology.

[Chris Fultz]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

What I would really like to see, however, (and maybe this goes on at off-season events) is a mentor drive team vs. mentor drive team match... I think after a season of receiving "helpful tips" from us mentors, the students might enjoy seeing how closely we followed our own advice! And the mentors might have a better appreciation of exactly how challenging driving the machine and sticking to strategy in competition really is. I mean... it looks pretty easy from the stands.... Jason

we have done this at the IRI.
coach MUST be a student.
drive team must be mentors who were not drivers on a FIRST team.

it was ugly....

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz

we have done this at the IRI.
coach MUST be a student.
drive team must be mentors who were not drivers on a FIRST team.

it was ugly....

It's spreading. SCRRF Fall Classic 2006 had it after the finals. Not sure about 2007.

[Paul Copioli]

To reiterate Andy's post, we do not have a mentor as the drive coach because it puts us in a better position to win. We have a mentor drive coach (an engineer, specifically) so the students can work side by side with the engineers. On our team, the students work side by side with the mentors during every phase of the FRC season: off season events, design, prototyping, build, Chariman's (although this is more student tilted than the rest of the stuff), practice, and competition. This works for us. Why should the side by side stop at the field entrance?

For us, it has nothing to do with winning but has everything to do with side by side coperation between professionals and students.

And yes, I yell (shout, whatever you want to call it) when behind the glass becasue you can't hear anything behind that Lexan shield.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Molten

I have seen many adult coaches yelling on the field, I have yet to see a student coach yelling on the field. I am not asking you to have a student on the field necesarily, just try to make sure that whoever you choose to put out there is not taking away from the fun.

FIRST is a sporting event. Yelling is part of sporting events. Why shouldn't the coach yell?

Unless the coach is cussing out the kids, or being grossly inappropriate, I fail to see yelling as being derogatory in nature.

[Molten]

First off, Tom: I am not saying that having a student yelling is any better. Re-read the last line of my previous post.

Next, Cory: The reason the coaches yelling at a football game is seen as acceptable is because they are yelling a long distance. In FIRST, the coach is standing right next to you. There is no need to yell. If you think it is still 'no big deal' to have people down there yelling, have a friend or someone yell at you when you are taking a test(or doing something else that requires though) and see if it is 'no big deal'.

I am not going to say that all teams should have a student as a coach. I am just saying that all teams should consider what effect their particular coach is going to have on the game. And I would like to suggest that perhaps winning is not where you should focus. You should put the focus on the fun.