Adult coach?

[Andy Baker]

This is the FIRST Robotics Competition. The field coach position should be filled by the best person who is willing to undertake the job.

If a team has a good student coach, then that is great.

If a team has a good adult coach, then that is also great.

I am a proponent for adult coaches. FIRST is about bringing light to role models and heroes. Adult coaches are mentors who are in the limelight, performing under pressure. Good adult coaches are to be admired and respected, as they are good role models for the FIRST community.

I know that the drivers on team 45 cherish the chance of being in an alliance with a team who has a long-time FIRST mentor as a drive team coach. Whether it is Kyle Hughes of 27, Ken Patton of 65, Dan Quiggle of 179, Glenn Lee of 359, or Brian Beatty of 71, each is an eye-opening experience that is revered by students.

The fact that students on FIRST teams can look up to these well-known FIRST drive coaches (and many others) is a good thing. That benefit alone overrides some of the bad experiences that take place with a few over-bearing coaches.

Adult coaches do a good job of certain things that are hard for student coaches to do. They take the heat when the match is lost. They give credit to the drivers when the match is won. They are a steady, consistent face, representing a team on the playing field for year after year. It is no coincidence that many teams with sustainable success on the FIRST playing field have the same adult drive coach for year after year.

With this said, I have seen some great student coaches. Like I said, whatever is best for that team's situation is what should be done.

Andy B.

[Laura_587]

On our team, I'm the coach. The year before I joined the team, we had a couple of mentor coaches, but it caused tensions between the drivers, students, and teachers. We eventually decided that it was better to have student coaches. But I understand that sometimes a mentor might be better because they are more commanding. We had a student coach in the past who didn't give orders well enough. It drove the drivers crazy. We've occasionally put an adult out on the field this year during a practice match because we couldn't find one of our drivers, but I just stood at the robocoach station and them came over and coached.

[rick.oliver]

1038 has competed for six seasons. The first two years we fielded a student coach. In our second year, we earned the position of alliance captain and won (with the help of excellent partners) our division in Atlanta.

At the end of our second year I was invited by the Team Leader to become the Coach. He made that decision for many of the reasons outlined by others. At the end of last season, one of our students (a senior this season) expressed a desire to coach. We put together a plan for him to gain some experience and he coached this season.

We made the decision to put Steve in as coach because he had demonstrated the capacity to fill the role.

Last year, I coached along side a student coach from 1126 (I'm pretty sure he was pre-college; at my age, it gets harder to tell ). He did an excellent job as coach and alliance captain.

There was a thread a few years ago about coaching that included contributions from Andy Baker, among others. They described the attributes of a good coach. They also outlined the expectations. If your team is fortunate to have somebody with those qualities available, then why not put them to use. We should strive to make the best use of all of our resources.

I think that coaching is an important role that benefits from continuity and experience; therefore, I am a proponent of mentor coaches.

[Torboticsmember]

On Torbotics we have used a student coach for the past two years. Our mentors feel at the competition they should do as little as possible, but they are certainly not slacking off, to let the students learn as much as they can about FIRST and its goals and experience them. I personally like the student coach because
1. I feel I can communicate better with a peer, and he can better communicate with me.
2. It allows another position for a student that has worked hard on our robot to get to enjoy the pleasures.

Also for the past two years the coach has been an Andrew but that is just because the A's are awesome at our high school

[Molten]

Originally Posted by boiler

I hope the continuing discussions do not devolve into one of those threads.

I still keep my opinions. However, I think we all should head the intent of this thread. If anyone would like to discuss one of my previous posts, please send me a PM. Otherwise, I would request that we do not continue the discussion on here.

[artdutra04]

I answered Adults at least 50% of the time.

While 228 usually has a college or adult mentor with extensive experience on the field to fill in the role of FRC drive team coach during the competition season (which includes any regionals, Championships, and BattleCry@WPI ), there are sometimes exceptions. Generally, the students on the team want to win at these events, so the team will pick whoever is best qualified for the positions on the drive team.

But once we get into the rest of the off-season, we usually mix up the drive team and let as many students as possible have some time on the field; and that can include student drive team coaches. At these events, the students don't care as much about winning as just having fun out on the playing field.

And our Vex team(s) have always been all students for everything.

[Don Wright]

Just a side note...

I know that this thread has gotten somewhat "heated" and "like those other threads", but isn't that part of the discussion? Just because some people are somewhat taking a more firm stance on how they do things doesn't mean we should calm down or anything... Obviously if people start insulting others or saying that they are stupid, then things have gone too far. But, I personally don't things have gotten bad at all and think it's a healthy discussion...

Back to the discussion...

[SSMike]

I was the coach for my team this year and I believe that I am the first student coach that we've ever had. The two previous years the coach was one of our teachers and mentors and he did an amazing job. So when this year I was asked to be the coach, I was honored. It really meant a lot to me that my team would chose me to be the one instructing (for lack of a better term) the drivers.

Coaching really is a great way to get more interaction between students and mentors, not just on your team, but on other teams as well. I know that just from pre-match strategizing that you get to know members of FIRST teams from around the world. And ultimately, IMHO, this is one of the most important goals of FIRST.

I will say this however, the coach needs to work well with the drive team and know how to keep them calm, yet still energized. On the issue of student vs. adult coaches, I agree with Andy in that it should be the person who is best suited for the role and can help the team the most. In my opinion, it doesn't matter if that person is a student or an adult, you can have success with either of them.

[Danny Diaz]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

On our team, we have 2 rules:

1. Paul is the drive coach.
2. If you think it should be someone else, see rule #1.

Seriously, though I have been the on field coach since 2000 and don't really see that changing in the near future.

That's the exact same thing on 418. Of course,

s/Paul/Tony Bertucci/

and that isn't going to change until he retires either.

-Danny

[sgreco]

Our team always has student coaches. We make our mentors do as little hands on work as possible, they do more supervising and teaching then they do actual hands on work. The mentors on our team are more useful in the offseason when they teach us then they step back during the build season and let the students do all the work.

The way I see it, if an adult is coach they are taking away an oppertunity that a child could have to learn from.

[Chris Fultz]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

What I would really like to see, however, (and maybe this goes on at off-season events) is a mentor drive team vs. mentor drive team match... I think after a season of receiving "helpful tips" from us mentors, the students might enjoy seeing how closely we followed our own advice! And the mentors might have a better appreciation of exactly how challenging driving the machine and sticking to strategy in competition really is. I mean... it looks pretty easy from the stands.... Jason

we have done this at the IRI.
coach MUST be a student.
drive team must be mentors who were not drivers on a FIRST team.

it was ugly....

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz

we have done this at the IRI.
coach MUST be a student.
drive team must be mentors who were not drivers on a FIRST team.

it was ugly....

It's spreading. SCRRF Fall Classic 2006 had it after the finals. Not sure about 2007.

[Paul Copioli]

To reiterate Andy's post, we do not have a mentor as the drive coach because it puts us in a better position to win. We have a mentor drive coach (an engineer, specifically) so the students can work side by side with the engineers. On our team, the students work side by side with the mentors during every phase of the FRC season: off season events, design, prototyping, build, Chariman's (although this is more student tilted than the rest of the stuff), practice, and competition. This works for us. Why should the side by side stop at the field entrance?

For us, it has nothing to do with winning but has everything to do with side by side coperation between professionals and students.

And yes, I yell (shout, whatever you want to call it) when behind the glass becasue you can't hear anything behind that Lexan shield.

[Lil' Lavery]

I have coached both as a high school student and college mentor. After seeing a bit of both sides of the coin, I think it's pretty safe to say that it's about what works best for your team, and what will give you the best chemistry and results. Different drivers and individuals react to different coaches and individuals better than others, and it all depends on what will fit for your team. There isn't a "right" or a "wrong" way to do it.
As I've said in plenty of other threads, chemistry is a big part of the picture. You have to know what individuals can fulfill the job and work together (and with other teams) properly.
I had the absolute pleasure of working in, what was in my opinion, one of the finest drive teams in FIRST in 2006 and 2007. I had known the driver since 7th grade, and he and the operator were best friends since elementary school. We worked together fluidly and easily, and our chemistry enabled us to perform much better than we should have given our robots. Our attitudes and skill sets complimented each-other, and it resulted a well-oiled, adept drive team.
This year, I was the understudy to an outstanding collegiate coach, Mike Williams of 1712. I also coached our "2nd drive team" who operated roughly half of our qualification matches (since the entire 1st drive crew, including Mike, was due to graduate). I know for a fact, I was nowhere near as good of a coach this year as I was last, at least partially because I didn't quite have the same level of chemistry and comfort as I did with my previous drive teams. This was especially true when I filled in for Mike on the 1st team, as he was much more skilled at communicating with that driver than I. That was his team, not mine, and for good reason. I'm glad I had this experience, especially at building chemistry with the future drivers of 1712, and I hope I get the opportunity to continue coaching them in the future.
I have coached with and against many of those mentioned in this thread, as well as many other great and not-so-great coaches. I've learned a lot from working with many, both positive and negative. Some mentors have shut out my ideas, but that is a vast minority. On more than one occasion I gleaned some strategic insight during both the pre-match planning and listening to them coach during the match. I have seen some tremendous students coaches, and some who speak maybe two words the entire match. I have seen adult coaches grab their students my the shoulders and yell at them, and I have seen students cuss out their drivers. I have seen both students and mentors execute strategies I've only dreamed of to perfection.
As for the suggestion that students are every bit as prepared to handle the pressure and full scale of coaching, I know for a fact that isn't always true. There are many who are capable, but the maturity and experience needed are often much easier to find in adults (although some of them are lacking in it as well). I have also encountered a handful of coaches who don't have the same level of respect for student coaches, and often don't respect their opinion as much as they would if it were coming from the mouth of another mentor.
I know for a fact that I have room to improve, and my problems also didn't magically vanish when I transitioned to a college coach. Though the problems with pressure and the situation aren't as overt as you might imagine (it's not like anyone is suggesting that student coaches will break down and cry), they do exist. I have yet to have much success in the elimination rounds, and while some of the reasons why I have lost may be out of my hands, I can guarantee I am at least part of the problem. I have room to improve and grow as a coach, and I look forward to doing so.
Also note, that as a student coach, I did have a fair bit of success. I was one penalty away from reaching the Galileo division finals last year. Against 1114 I am 2-0 career (I'm not sure if it was Karthik or Derek coaching at IRI 2006, but it was Karthik in 07). Against JVN I am 1-0 (not counting matches where my robot wasn't on the field). Against Paul Copioli I am 2-0*. I'm 2-1 against Andy Baker.

Sorry for rambling, I hope what I just said makes any sense. Bottom line, do what works for you.

*Although I'm 2-0 against 217 when Paul coaches, I'm 0-2 against them when he doesn't....hmmm....

[JaneYoung]

What you guys are doing or should be doing is projecting from your diaphragms. You know if you are yelling, hollering, or shrieking - if your throat hurts. That means you are yelling from your throat, not speaking from your diaphragm. I learned this in voice and speech classes. Good public speakers and singers learn the value of this. It is of value to coaches as well.

(This is probably falling on deaf ears, I know- but some of you are speaking correctly when coaching and many of you are not - which = yelling and sore throats.)
--
So much is involved in the competition regarding the robots and how they perform, the alliances, and interactions. And also, what occurs off the field and around the field. Maturity is key in this. I like Paul's perspective of the interactions of the drive team with the engineer/coach from beginning to end of the competition season. That's very cool. It isn't the only way, but is certainly is a great way.

It probably also helps the engineers continue to develop and hone their skills in many areas as well.