Adult coach?

[Kate00]

I was the driver of my high school's FRC team for two years. We used a student coach.

At GTR in 2006, I had the chance to work with Ken Patton (65), and have had the chance to work with Derek Bessette (1114) and Shawn Lim (188) quite a few times. All of these mentors have won WFA's.

At the Canada's Wonderland offseason event in 2006, the current coach, operator, and myself (we were switching out human players as ours had graduated) decided to ask Karthik to coach for us in a few matches. Those were two of the best matches I've ever played as a driver. The other matches that I also played well in came as a direct result of the lessons I learned from his coaching. Our student coach became our human player, so that she could learn from Karthik.

One of the biggest differences for me in working with adult coach was how much better the communication was. I'm not trying to put down students (especially not my student coach) in any way, but adults simply have more experience at effective communication. Coaches who have coached for many years know what they have to do to get their point across to the drivers in a match. They have more confidence in directing people.

Adult coaches seem to be more comfortable with communication with other alliances as well. In every single one of the 84 matches I have driven in, the only coaches who I remember communicating with us in the box were adults. This contributed greatly to the cohesiveness of our alliances.

It was incredibly inspiring to have worked with Ken, Derek, Shawn, Karthik, et. al. Seeing adults handle themselves in high-pressure situations, learning for the experience those people have in pressured situations, how they react to things and how they keep their drivers calm. These people are truly the rock stars of FIRST - they're out there for all to see and admire. They are the people who other teams become familiar with, who are the most approachable for help in the pits, who help us work under pressure, and who help to mentor us at the events. As a driver, they inspired me.

One of my clearest memories of being a driver is after one of the matches in which Karthik coached us, having my drive team (including the student coach) talking together, about how much better of a learning experience it was working with him, having him work with us to improve our strategies and our match execution, as opposed to having to try and muddle through on our own. In my opinion, that is what makes FIRST great - students working alongside mentors to solve problems.

As a student driver, I feel like I was deprived in that I only had a small taste of it was like to work with an adult coach. The operator on my team felt the same way, as did the student coach.

[dtengineering]

In many school projects students are expected to do the majority of the design/build/leadership work. FRC, intentionally, takes a slightly different approach, that was perhaps best expressed by Tom who described it as the difference between being adults being role models vs. being teachers. It assumes that students can learn by watching, as well as by doing. This is a different approach from many other high school projects and it does take a while for those of us used to the "learn by doing" approach to appreciate the significance. So it is, perhaps, not surprising that some people will tend to have a philosophical bias in favour of advocating for student coaches simply because that is the model to which they are accustomed.

I recall in my first trip to a regional that I was shocked by the number of "bearded, beer-bellied, bifocaled" students working on robots that "could never have been designed by students". In my previous experience with student competitions adult involvement on the machines was frowned upon, and I carried some of that bias over to what I observed at the GTR.

So while it may be difficult for mentors who have been primarily involved with FIRST for many years to appreciate why some people bring a "students gotta DO it" attitude to FRC, it is just that that attitude is prevalent in many, many other competitions. Many people new to first arrive with that bias.

It doesn't mean it is right, but it is, I think, understandable. Patient, calm, explanations of the FIRST approach such as we have seen here are necessary to help newcomers to FIRST understand that this is an intentional difference and the reasons for it. Unlike many competitions (some of which specifically ban adults from the pits) FIRST welcomes a very broad spectrum of student/adult involvement. Obviously the extreme ends ("adults do it all, show robot to kids Feb. 22nd" and "kids and KOP thrown in room without supervision or guidance") are to be frowned upon as they fail to generate adult/student interaction, but aside from that... "live and let live"! And yes, we will have to make that explanation every year. Well... so long as the program keeps attracting new members, that is!

Jason

P.S. An interesting example of the exact opposite situation occurred recently when an FRC team entered a non-FRC competition that was specifically student-build oriented. I am told that the skills that the students had learned through working with their adult mentors in FRC led them to design and build a robot for that competition that was so far ahead of their competitors that there were mutterings of "they cheated... the teachers did it". The students were simultaneously offended, flattered, and somewhat shocked, I think, to discover that they had advanced so far, so quickly through their FRC involvement. Oh, yeah... they won handily, too, and their machine IS really cool. (Patrick, if you're reading this... post a photo and show that puppy off, man!)

[Madison]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

P.S. An interesting example of the exact opposite situation occurred recently when an FRC team entered a non-FRC competition that was specifically student-build oriented. I am told that the skills that the students had learned through working with their adult mentors in FRC led them to design and build a robot for that competition that was so far ahead of their competitors that there were mutterings of "they cheated... the teachers did it". The students were simultaneously offended, flattered, and somewhat shocked, I think, to discover that they had advanced so far, so quickly through their FRC involvement. Oh, yeah... they won handily, too, and their machine IS really cool. (Patrick, if you're reading this... post a photo and show that puppy off, man!)

Our students are in the midst of participating in a non-FRC competition and we have had experiences exactly like those you're talking about. I wasn't able to attend last year, but my understanding was that our team was booed and jeered because of the considerable advantage they displayed over their competitors. It was a remarkably different experience for them compared to what they've come to know from FIRST events, I'm sure.

[BT987]

we use an sdult coach....hes beowulf lol

[Daniel_LaFleur]

During the practice matches on the Thursday of a regional we will sometimes put in mentors as coach, as we try and assess the robots performance and note if any 'adjustments' need to be made.

Once the competition starts on Friday, it's all students. We believe that the leadership skills learned during those matches for the coach are more valuble than the 'competitive advantage'. This is not to say that doing it another way is wrong ... just not our style.

[Andrew141WOBOT]

Team #141 has two drive teams, each with its own student coach. We never use adult coachs.

[Josh Goodman]

I'm the coach for 1511 and we have a pretty good system. Our scouting and strategy master will basically talk with me before a match and come up with a gameplan for the next match. This is the drive team's time to work alongside a mentor who is strategizing just as much as the coach. Plus, it gives me an experience to step into that I've learned a lot from and gotten better at.

The chemistry really works on our drive team. I'm really good friends with the members and that really helps. I've also been a leader on the team and coach for a couple of years, so I do have some experience, but it's all about the drive team.

I can totally see both sides of this argument. Frankly, if I were a driver it would be awesome to play a match under direction of the best of the best mentors. However, it is also true that I have coached alongside other coaches who are much, much better then some adult coaches.

You can't generally compare student and mentor coaches, it needs to be taken case by case and team by team to see who is best for the job. I believe our way of running it is GOOD not the ONLY way, not the BEST way, but a good way.


This is MHO. Please don't flame me, I don't mean to upset anyone else.

[Ken Patton]

I'm dredging up this thread because I just had an experience that I think relates to why I am in favor of adult FRC coaches. Sorry in advance for the long post.

When you coach FRC, you get to meet a lot of people. And lots of times, its more than just a casual, shake their hands, nod your head, see ya next year kind of thing. You are fellow competitors, sharing some intense moments as allies or opponents, and mutual respect and friendships sometimes develop. Students who know their coaches well sometimes get to know other coaches well.

Recently, a student who was mentored by some FRC friends of mine contacted me and asked some (imo) really important questions related to his education/future. I'm honored that this guy would come to me - I consider him to be a totally on-the-ball guy, and a future success. I met his dad in the stands while scouting a few years ago, and I know he has fantastic support in his life. So its not like he doesn't get good advice from his other people.

But he had questions that I'm probably pretty well-suited to answer. And because we know each other well, its a natural thing for him to ask me questions like this (he was asking about the merits of UniversityA versus UniversityB in the eyes of a potential employer). Heres the PM that I sent him (some info redacted to protect privacy):

Hi _____-

I would say that some, including me (and I hire a couple of mechanical engineers per year), would put a little more strength on the UniversityA degree. You have to remember though that I am not super-well-familiar with __ schools, so I am not going on a lot of info here. Someone with more insight from your state might have a different opinion.

In the end, if you had a good resume - and I expect you will - I think your grades at UniversityB, your experiences in FRC, jobs you have had, and any academic-related experiences (assisting professors on something, student competitions like FSAE or Mini-Baja, student associations such as SAE) you have had, will have a weight that is similar to the UniversityA vs. UniversityB weight. So there is no doubt that you can get an employer's attention at either school.

I hope that gives you some insight.

If you ever need someone to review a resume, serve as a reference, etc, count me in. Although you have some great ___ers who know you better than I do....

See ya,
Ken


I think the above example is a good reason why adult coaches are good for FRC. And I know, you don't have to be a coach to be in a position to develop these sorts of relationships... but I would not have met this young man if I had not been a coach, and if his team coach/mentors were not adults who became friends through the competitive FRC world (and also through CD! Thanks Brandon!).

I'm lucky to know him, someday I might even be lucky enough to interview or hire him when he "turns pro."

Ken

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Ken Patton

I'm dredging up this thread because I just had an experience that I think relates to why I am in favor of adult FRC coaches....

<snipped>

I'm lucky to know him, someday I might even be lucky enough to interview or hire him when he "turns pro."

Ken

A couple of things here, folks...

1. This is why Ken Patton is a hero to many. Ken, you are great!

2. If you are against adult coaches, but agree with the mentoring mission of FIRST, then I feel that you don't understand what all Ken is saying above.

3. While this case Ken is talking about has nothing to do with students I know, it has happened to students on team 45 in the past.... and it's a great thing for these students to have access to people like Ken.

Andy

[Dylan Gramlich]

I agree whole-heartedly with what Ken adn Andy have just said. I have always felt that students should get the experience coaching and that it would help many students, but I have never been against mentors coaching also. I have coached alongside mentors that let their students do the talking while they sat back and listened to the gameplan unfold. I have had the honor to work with (imo and many others) some of the rockstars of FIRST like Ken Patton and Paul Copioli (might have spelled that wrong). I gained alot from listening and watching them coach, but I also learned from the students they coach, seeing the way they listen and are so attentive to these mentors makes me wonder what my team mates think of me as their coach. I may never get the chance to coach as a mentor, since my team has always used student coaches, but I know that I can still pass down the knowledge I have gained to those that come after me.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

2. If you are against adult coaches, but agree with the mentoring mission of FIRST, then I feel that you don't understand what all Ken is saying above.

And I think Ken is robbing student coaches of the chance to meet and work with students on other teams. In eight years of Scouting and four in FIRST I've really enjoyed watching young people develop maturity, character, confidence and communications skills. Allowing students to coach gives them a unique chance to internalize these things rather than just being inspired by sitting in the stands watching an adult do them.

I thought this horse had been beaten and put away. I'm still in favor of of a big-tent approach to the role of adults in FIRST, and I don't feel like I fail to understand any of this. Disagreeing with Ken on the use of adult coaches does NOT mean that I don't understand, it just means that I disagree.

[chessking132]

It is my personal choice to have an adult. I think an adult helps to keep the driver meetings moving forward. This also helps keep the drive team focused. They can also help to make sure a teams robot gets on to the field. If you have a new drive team they need some one who understands FIRST and how competition works because steeping on to the field for the first time can be overwhelming. I am not opposed to having students coach but as a driver I prefer to have a mentor as my coach.

Matthew Simpson
Team 75 driver

[Ken Patton]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

.... it just means that I disagree.

Rick-

I wasn't trying to continue beating a dead horse. I thought this was a real story that helped to show that there are things going on in the FRC world that go beyond the on-the-field action. And that those things are supported by the on-the-field action and the mostly adult acquaintances/friendships that develop over years of competition.

What I didn't say is that I think this type of community/interaction is not replicated as well in other forms of student competitions/activities that I have participated in (Boy Scouts, Explorers, SAE MiniBaja, Formula SAE, AWIM, FLL, OCCRA, Vex, FutureTruck, ChallengeX). Its one of the reasons why FRC is so good for us, its unique.

Its okay with me that you disagree, in fact my opinion means nothing - thats one great thing about FRC, there's room for many approaches. However, if I run into some of your team's student coaches/drivers on the field of battle someday, I still might ask 'em what they're doing after high school.

Ken

[SL8]

Originally Posted by Ken Patton

Rick-

I wasn't trying to continue beating a dead horse.

What is it with this hilariously Sadistic metaphore?

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Dylan Gramlich

I agree whole-heartedly with what Ken and Andy have just said. I have always felt that students should get the experience coaching and that it would help many students, but I have never been against mentors coaching also. I have coached alongside mentors that let their students do the talking while they sat back and listened to the gameplan unfold. I have had the honor to work with (imo and many others) some of the rockstars of FIRST like Ken Patton and Paul Copioli (might have spelled that wrong). I gained alot from listening and watching them coach, but I also learned from the students they coach, seeing the way they listen and are so attentive to these mentors makes me wonder what my team mates think of me as their coach. I may never get the chance to coach as a mentor, since my team has always used student coaches, but I know that I can still pass down the knowledge I have gained to those that come after me.

There is a lot of wisdom in this post. A whole lot. Sometimes it is good to rein in the passion and look at this through introspective eyes as Dylan has done. It made me think that the mix is good. If we had all teams with adults coaches or all teams with student coaches - the competition would become more limited, not allowing the levels of experience to work together and explore opportunities.

I would love to spotlight this whole post. It is a winner.