Electric Vehicles, in favor of? or disapprove?

[sanddrag]

60km range, 120kph top speed, and $50,000?. Absolutely not. Quadruple the range, bump the top speed to 135 kph, and chop the price in 3, then maybe I'd consider buying it. These are the very reasons electric cars have not yet succeeded. For the amount of energy you get out of it, gasoline is still relatively cheap. You can go buy a brand new car for <$20,000, that will get 30 mpg. You can get a used one for half. Why would you drop $50,000 on a car with very limited range, uncertainty of getting places (if it is dead), and can't cruise with some of the faster traffic around here? Not gonna happen.

Personally, I drive 75 miles per day, four days per week, in a vehicle that gets 14.5 mpg. Smart? Not exactly, but look at the alternative. Yes, I'm spending $400 per month on gas, but it would cost me over 1.5x that to live closer to school. Say I got a vehicle that got twice the gas mileage, so I saved $200 per month. There's no way a person can pay for and insure a vehicle for only $200 per month. What's a person to do? It would take a VERY long time to get your money back to drop $50,000, or even $30,000 on a car, when you already have a car. Until gas is $10 per gallon or electric cars drop sub-$20k, the electric car will hardly get a second look.

I'm not terribly confident in the near future of hybrid technology either. GM next year will be releasing a hybrid (wait for it.....) Yukon. I mean seriously, what are they thinking? It costs like another $15,000+ over a regular Yukon, has a gigantic 6L engine still, and only gets another 5mpg. The point is?

At this point, there are only three options as I see it. 1. Eat the cost (bad for saving for retirement). 2. Don't drive. Yeah right. 3. Buy an old diesel Mercedes and visit the back door of your favorite restaurant when your tank gets low.

I like option 3. But, most of us will be on option 1 for quite some time, because our lifestyles and locations, require us to drive, and we currently haven't the money to change our lifestyles or locations. I'd conjecture that most of the country has a fair amount of debt, and simply cannot move their home or purchase a different vehicle, because either of those still costs more than the rising price of gas.

On a related note, I'm finding it more and more difficult for people to start a career and make significant progress toward owning a home and retiring at a decent age in the US. Saving in this day and age is downright difficult when you have to spend over half of your yearly income just to put a roof over your head, and then you need to eat, and drive, and maybe pay for a kid too. What's left?

[artdutra04]

I would not get the car table you described.

But if you changed the specs to 200+ mile range, 135 mph max speed, and 0-60 acceleration in under 4 seconds, then I'd get one if I had that kind of cash. But I don't, so until they come out with a more affordable model in the coming decade, the closest I'll get to an electric car is my i180 Segway.

Edit:

Originally Posted by sanddrag

I'm not terribly confident in the near future of hybrid technology either. GM next year will be releasing a hybrid (wait for it.....) Yukon. I mean seriously, what are they thinking? It costs like another $15,000+ over a regular Yukon, has a gigantic 6L engine still, and only gets another 5mpg. The point is?

It's the same point as the people who order super-size value means at fast food chains with a Diet Coke.

It's just to artificially give them the warm and fuzzies that they did something good.

(By no means am I against hybrid or electric cars, it's just that a hybrid Yukon seems pointless. You can get a smaller (and cheaper) car and get the same improvement in gas mileage).

[Tristan Lall]

This GM documentary video from c. 1969 has some pretty interesting descriptions of all sorts of alternative power sources under consideration at the time. You'll notice that some of these designs have been in continuous development for the last 40 years, and still aren't ready for prime time.

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

This GM documentary video from c. 1969 has some pretty interesting descriptions of all sorts of alternative power sources under consideration at the time. You'll notice that some of these designs have been in continuous development for the last 40 years, and still aren't ready for prime time.

Wow! isn't that interesting?, wonder what the gas price was back then in 1969?

One thing for sure is once it goes above $1.50/litre towards $2.00/litre which will be soon at the rate oil is rising our lives will change big time, we will all be driving scooters, I'd go get that class M upgrade now to you're licence. It's not just how high but how fast the prices are rising, wages just can't keep up.

I just got rid of my big 8 cyl truck and got a 2.8L chev colorado and my fuel bill is 50% less but once we are at $1.50 or higher it will once again be unaffordable and I use the vehicle for business.

I'd say we are ina full blown state of emergency when it comes to energy costs in north america and even all the so-called experts have been wrong and know have no clue what they are talking about as even they admit we are in uncharted waters.

One only has to look at this victoria day long weekend, I have worked in news doe 12 years and sure the weather is a bit cool this weekend but honestly I have never seen this few cars on the road and boats on the water, I still have a hard time believing it's the holiday weekend.

People are obviously just using the car for whats really necessary.

I was at the OPP safety blitz on the 400 all day Friday and the cops with 30 years on the force where telling me they have never seen anything like this....even in pouring rain there was more traffic than this weekend.

My only question is how bad is it going to get? if gas/oil is staying this high during a recession what will it rise to once our economy picks up again?

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Mark Rozitis

My only question is how bad is it going to get? if gas/oil is staying this high during a recession what will it rise to once our economy picks up again?

It's not just the Western economy that will dictate the price of gas in the future, it's the entire world economy. India and China - both with over a billion people each - are surging out of third world status, and that means millions and millions of more cars on their roads.

Unless there is a miraculous discovery of an enormous (and I mean like Saudi Arabia huge) oil reserve, the supply of oil just won't be able to keep up with the demand to get the price of gas cheap again. And even if we did find such a huge reserve, the environmental implications of adding all that carbon dioxide to the atmosphere certainly wouldn't help the global warming situation.

The solution(s) for the twenty-first century certainly won't be as easy as the "just drill more wells!" philosophy of the twentieth.

[Generalx5]

Electrical energy is clean and produces no carbon dioxide, yes the power plants may be using coal, but if the automobile company devoted money into solar and wind energy to undo the carbon dioxide production at another power plant, would this be fair to say that the energy on these vehicles are from a clean source?

Originally Posted by Generalx5

Electrical energy is clean and produces no carbon dioxide, yes the power plants may be using coal, but if the automobile company devoted money into solar and wind energy to undo the carbon dioxide production at another power plant, would this be fair to say that the energy on these vehicles are from a clean source?

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar...index.jsp?id=1

GM just announced it is closing four plants including the truck plant in Oshawa ontario that makes the big trucks that no one can afford to drive even if given one for free but this Chev Volt might just be the next big thing and beat hybrid right out of business, this sounds really good, run on battery and when the battery runs down the engine drives the car and charges the battery and when at home just plug it in to charge.....that is going to be the next big thing I'm sure.

I was just covering an event in Toronto, some green tree hugging event and the City of Toronto had one of these cars on display.

Now if GM and others use the same technology to make small/medium trucks as well that would be even better.

I just got lucky, I was able to find a Chev Colorado 4 cyl 2.8 4x4 and get rid of my big GMC 2500 and at today's fuel prices and the driving I do in the business I would be into $145/day in fuel.

I am still working at trying to make everything fit and need to figure out how to build and design some better compartments, cable reels and stuff all in the little truck ( I am a news camera guy), but I love this truck...and the lower gas bills.

If gas goes to $1.50 or $2.00/litre I will be in trouble again.

m

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Mark Rozitis

I'd say we are ina full blown state of emergency when it comes to energy costs in north america

Which Europe has coped with for how many years now, with their high taxes?

Back on topic, our electricity went out unexpectedly this week for about 12 hours. Yesterday and last night thousands in SE Mich lost power due to high winds. How are you going to charge your car when the electricity grid fails?

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Mark Rozitis

I'd say we are ina full blown state of emergency when it comes to energy costs in north america and even all the so-called experts have been wrong and know have no clue what they are talking about as even they admit we are in uncharted waters.

I saw a story on the CBS news last night where they speculated how the future would be with rising gas prices. How we could have a world where travel becomes far too expensive to drive or fly cross country. Where NASCAR can no longer afford to operate and where people will move back to the cites to save on travel expenses.
That people would have to give up what they do today because it costs too much to live that way. It made me think of what it would be like for FIRST. It would cost way too much for certain teams to travel and the championships would simply be out of the question. It certainly would change my travel schedule to numerous events.

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I saw a story on the CBS news last night where they speculated how the future would be with rising gas prices. How we could have a world where travel becomes far too expensive to drive or fly cross country. Where NASCAR can no longer afford to operate and where people will move back to the cites to save on travel expenses.
That people would have to give up what they do today because it costs too much to live that way. It made me think of what it would be like for FIRST. It would cost way too much for certain teams to travel and the championships would simply be out of the question. It certainly would change my travel schedule to numerous events.

I didn't see that story but I have sure read alot about what life will be like when we have $200 oil and higher, I shoot for two stations in Toronto and we had an interview clip on with David Suzuki and he mentioned that in the not to distant future we will all live, work and play within walking or biking distance.

It's hard to imagine just how big the changes will be and for someone like me who lives to drive it is severely depressing, If I go more than a day without driving around and seeing some of the beautiful ontario countryside I get depressed. That's why I've always said I could never work in an office, but yea how much fuel/oil are we using up flying alone? I think eventually and sooner like perhaps after the recession is over and oil goes for another massive run life is going to change and this is going to happen in our lifetime.

Just like climate change, it's "happening now".

David Suzuki also mentioned that it would indirectly solve the obiesity crisis as most people would be doing more walking and biking instead of using a car for everything like we do now.

Going to be interesting times, I'm not too happy about it though.

m

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Mark Rozitis

Keep in mind only the major automakers can get cars certified for the road by the transportation safety board easily

Trust me, it's no easire for them than for you and me, except they have the knowledge (they've done it before) and the resources(engineering staff, lawyers, etc). They still have to work pretty hard at it though.

Originally Posted by Mark Rozitis

What I am wondering is why the big guys like GM then don't jump on the big money that is there to be made in going electric if they have the technology

Simple: There is no big money to be made, EVs are still a losing proposition, gas is still cheaper and loads more convenient, even at $4 a gallon.

$10 a gallon, though...

MY vote is for a diesel hybrid, the (small) engine runs a generator at constant (and hyper-efficient) speed to charge the batteries, only electric motors drive the wheels and accessories. That diesel will run on vegetable oil too, and today's new BlueTec diesels are cleaner than any gasoline engine by quite a lot.

Don

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

Trust me, it's no easire for them than for you and me, except they have the knowledge (they've done it before) and the resources(engineering staff, lawyers, etc). They still have to work pretty hard at it though.

Simple: There is no big money to be made, EVs are still a losing proposition, gas is still cheaper and loads more convenient, even at $4 a gallon.

$10 a gallon, though...

MY vote is for a diesel hybrid, the (small) engine runs a generator at constant (and hyper-efficient) speed to charge the batteries, only electric motors drive the wheels and accessories. That diesel will run on vegetable oil too, and today's new BlueTec diesels are cleaner than any gasoline engine by quite a lot.

Don

yea maybe, you would think if there was big money in mass produced electric along the technology of the Chevy Volt they would have done it by now, then again maybe they too are gambling that this is just an oil bubble that will burst but 9 out of 10 analysts are saying that's not the case this time around.

Something has to happen soon, $150 oil looms next week....

Sure our lives and work will change but there will be one heck of a lot of people out of work because of this.

GM just signed a contract with it's workers and promised to keep the truck plant in Oshawa ontario open and that changed last week, the union is furious but other than the people that need it for absolute necessity for the business...who can afford the fuel for those trucks? No wonder GM had to make a tough business decision.

I just hope they start making more small trucks, we had the S10, now the colorado/canyon but we neen more because not everyone can fit into a tiny car.

Things are sure looking rather bleak thats for sure and one can only hope the automakers and goverment regulators will work to get electric and other stuff onto the market....NOW! not 3-5 years from now when fuel is $10/gallon.

Just think how high it will go this fall if we get a Katrina style storm or two even remotely threatening the gulf.

m

[acdcfan259]

Theres plenty of ways to help meet the demands that electric vehicles would put on our power grid. Wind farms, geothermal energy, solar energy, and nuclear.

[Protronie]

Originally Posted by acdcfan259

Theres plenty of ways to help meet the demands that electric vehicles would put on our power grid. Wind farms, geothermal energy, solar energy, and nuclear.

Wind farms are more hot air than electricity. They are not practical in most areas of the US. Neighbors often call them noisy and an eye sore.

Geothermal is another purely experimental source with limited locations.

Solar... is an excellent source of private energy generation ... when the sun shines. The cost of photocells has been dropping and their reliability has been increasing.

Nuclear... other counties (expect for the Ukraine) have an excellent safety record as well as a proved track record of providing a steady flow of power.
Its silly that the US has given into a bunch of wacky tree hugging environ nuts by banning a new construction.
With oil prices going through the roof perhaps its time to start building them again and maybe the enviros will be able to afford the gas in their SUV's.

Electric vehicles will not be the magic bullet needed to reverse global warming or make this nation energy independent.
However IMO they will be a part of the bigger picture. They will have a place, and they will be a part of the solution
Someday they may play a larger roll in our transport usage but that day is still far in the future and will cost billions in R&D money before they will replace the fossil fuel vehicles.

[Tom Saxton]

I just found this thread. I've been researching this subject for the past 18 months and have some information to add to the discussion.

Range

GM and Toyota both produced EVs with ranges above 100 miles to charge, so the 60 mile range is lower than what the big car companies were able to produce when forced to do so by the California Air Resources Board in the last 1990's. These vehicles were based on NiMH technology, lithium ion has been density. The Tesla Roadster has a range of 220 miles, so much more than 100 miles is possible.

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/

Cost

Of course EVs are more expensive than the mass-produced gas vehicles built by giant corporations that have been perfecting the technology and manufacturing process for 100 years. That cost gas vehicles is also artificially low because the buyers don't have to pay for the damage done to the atmosphere, it's great to not have to pay for dumping your trash!

The Tesla Roadster is expensive, but cost competitive when compared to similar high-end low-production sports cars. Lots of companies are working to get EVs into lower priced sedans. I'm sure that will happen, but not overnight.

Charge Time

People worry about how long it takes to charge an EV, but they totally ignore how inconvenient it is to make a trip to the gas station because we're all used to that annoyance. No one complains about how long it takes to charge a cell phone -- you just plug it in at night and it's full in the morning. As long as an EV has enough range for your daily commute, and charges overnight, it doesn't matter how long it takes. Imagine a world where waiting in line to breath in carcinogenic fumes and end up smelling like gas isn't normal. Imagine never having to go to a gas station again.

Given sufficient range and reasonable charge times, the charge time is only an issue for road trips. There are other solutions to the road trip problem - like owning a second car or renting a gas/electric hybrid for the few times you really need unlimited range.

Charge time is mainly limited by how much current you can pull through your outlet. For example, the Tesla Roadster's battery pack takes 4.5 hours to charge from fully drained with a 220V/90A circuit but it can be charged in less than an hour at a dedicated charging station. So, plug into the dedicated charger in the restaurant's parking lot and have a full battery after you finish a leisurely meal.

Well-to-Wheel Efficiency

The internal combustion engine (ICE) used to power vehicles is inherently inefficient with a narrow gap where they can generate significant torque and operate efficiently. That's why ICE vehicles have transmissions. Electric motors, especially AC induction motors, can be far more efficient and deliver torque over a much broader RPM range, and all without the complexity and maintenance issues of a transmission.

Both power plants and electric motors are more efficient than ICE technology, both in terms of miles per unit energy and miles per unit CO2 production.

http://www.teslamotors.com/efficiency/well_to_wheel.php

The Electric Grid

Our electric grid is designed to accommodate the highest peak load which typically occurs on hot summer days when air conditioning puts high demands on the grid. A recent study funded by the DOE found that the grid has enough unused capacity to charge 70 million EVs during off-peak hours. It we can figure out how to get the coffee maker to come on before we wake up in the morning, we can get our EVs to charge at night without having to manage it by running to the garage and plugging it at bed time.

http://www.pnl.gov/news/release.asp?id=204

EVs could actually help the grid by charging at night at low electric rates then selling their excess charge back to the grid during peak hours. Just tell your car it's OK to sell back to the grid as long as the battery is kept charged enough to satisfy your expected range needs.

EVs also have the advantage of being as green as the grid. It's easier to take care of CO2 production at a power plant than it is to change the technology of the thousands of vehicles that could be charged by that plant.

Recycling Batteries

I apologize for making yet another Tesla reference, but they are farther along in producing EVs than anyone else, or at least anyone else who's talking. Here's the story on recycling their batteries.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=66