Offseasons as your Regular Season?

[Corey Balint]

I was just thinking about the large amount of off-season events in the Mid-Atlantic/New England area and came to think, “Why don’t some teams just save the money and attend all of these events rather than attending a regional?” They are shorter, don’t require students to miss school, and are fun and far less stressful.

I know the one major thing teams are going to say is that you get all the kit parts every year when the new game starts. But if you just reuse the parts year to year, it should be just as cheap. While you won’t get the big fancy trophies or banners from an official event, you still get the experience and possible trophies from the off-seasons.

Quick List of Mid-Atl/N.E.events this year/last year:
Beantown Blitz-Annual
Battlecry-Annual
Wolcott-New 08
Mayhem-Annual
PARC-Annual
Monty-Annual
DoD-Annual
BE-Annual
Ramp Riot-Annual
BoB-Annual
Pascack-New 08
AA-New 08
River Rage-Annual
Ruckus-Annual
Bash-Annual
Deer Park-New 07

Just say as an average, they are $300 a pop. 16 events times $300 is $4,800. That’s not that bad if you ask me. Cheaper than one regional. Then you could treat IRI as your championship event (To me its just as hard to win here, some may say more some will says less…You could argue either side and have enough to defend your points easily) and that gets you just over $5,000 on the year.

There definitely would be a feel of something missing from the season, but you have time to perfect your robot and be much more creative. You also could just design a robot that is exactly like 1114 (or the Championship winner/Most dominant team). That just wouldn’t be as fun though…well kind of.

I just wanted to see if anyone else has thought about this at all or if anyone even sees this as a viable option. I’m not suggesting to anyone do it, but it just seems a bit cheaper and you get more competitions in. Also, not having 6 week schedule does hamper the fun a bit. Just wouldn’t be as much of a rush for people as normal.



Sorry if this is just all messed up thought wise. I'm never one to lay things out very well at first.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

I don't think this could completely replace the regular season because of the price of kit parts. After you purchase all the components that go into the bot (controller, radios, vics, fuse panels, motors, etc) I think you would be approaching the cost of registration, but I haven't done all the math.
Now, replacing a second regional/champs I think that it is most defiantly feasible, especially for a rookie team.

[Alan Anderson]

Gosh, I'm turning into quite the curmudgeon lately. Even though what I have to say is laced with the word "you", try to take it as a general commentary on the concept, and not anything personal.

Originally Posted by Corey Balint

They are shorter, don’t require students to miss school, and are fun and far less stressful.

FRC isn't about having fun. It isn't about the robots. If you ignore the six-week build time restriction, if you dismiss the stress of official regional competition events, if you set aside the need to set priorities between robotics and study...then you lose a significant amount of what this is about.

If you go around the program and only attend offseason events, you don't just give up the opportunity to win official FIRST robot trophies and banners. You remove yourself from contention for the big award. You avoid full exposure to the core reason for FIRST's existence. You essentially announce that you care mostly about having fun.

Fun isn't bad. Other tech-based programs would likely welcome your participation. But by trying to participate in FRC-related events as a non-FIRST team, you don't contribute appropriately to the program, and I would not be inclined to grant you entry to any such events for which I had responsibility.

[Joe G.]

The fun of FIRST is not entirely the competitions. The bulk of the hardest fun you'll ever have is opening up that box in early january, and the six week of chaos that that box of parts puts you through.

Also, the KOP is signifigantly discounted. I imagine that buying all the donated parts off the shelf would put the total very near, or above $6000, without a regional included.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

FRC isn't about having fun. It isn't about the robots. If you ignore the six-week build time restriction, if you dismiss the stress of official regional competition events, if you set aside the need to set priorities between robotics and study...then you lose a significant amount of what this is about.

If you go around the program and only attend offseason events, you don't just give up the opportunity to win official FIRST robot trophies and banners. You remove yourself from contention for the big award. You avoid full exposure to the core reason for FIRST's existence. You essentially announce that you care mostly about having fun.

Isn't FIRST about giving the students the experience of working with professional engineers to overcome a challenge and ultimately inspiring them to pursuit technical careers?
Sure, you may not have the same six week time crunch of normal FRC competition, but you still have to have a robot done for competition.
As I see it, as long as you're inspiring, you know what its about.

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by Jeff Rodriguez

Isn't FIRST about giving the students the experience of working with professional engineers to overcome a challenge and ultimately inspiring them to pursuit technical careers?
Sure, you may not have the same six week time crunch of normal FRC competition, but you still have to have a robot done for competition.
As I see it, as long as you're inspiring, you know what its about.

That was my thoughts as well Jeff. Besides, you could always set up a theoretical six weeks. Again, its not the same, and I do agree with what you said about the time restriction aspect, Alan, but that can be substituted easily with setting up your own set of guidelines for building.
And to your first point earlier Jeff, if we do indeed have to reuse the controller from year to year, it does become a bit cheaper. A good amount of the parts in the kit can be reused year to year. They might have a little bit of wear and tear and will eventually need to be replaced, but still the cost could be kept down a bit by just reusing parts.


Again, I'm not for/against this idea. I was just bringing it up to see if anyone else has thought about it and maybe even considered it. I don't think this is a good idea for most teams, but for some teams, it could work.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

I believe at least one regional is necessary.

As stated before, there is something about the time constraint and scope of the project we work on that really puts engineering into perspective for the students.

Also, the official events are always run very well, and teams always feel like there are MUCH higher powers at work while they compete.

If a team wants to ditch another regional in lieu of more off-seasons, I guess that's a valid choice for them to make. I believe 1519 does something like this.

I, for one, will continue to compete in as many official competitions as possible.

[Joe Matt]

The only problem with your plan would be the simple fact that each year offers new hardware, which is usually only available through the KoP. Vision sensors, new controllers, etc. Personally I think if a team registers for one event, gets the KoP, then does more off seasons than regionals that'd be kinda cool. Problem is that it's harder to manage a team when you're not in school (everyone has summer plans, etc).

[Elgin Clock]

You rcosts actually won't be anywhere near the $4800 mark for registration purposes at least.
A lot of these off-seasons are on the same weekend. if a team went to 10 a year, that would be unbelievable!

I think this could work in theory.

if a team wants every experience associated with FIRST without breaking the bank, then they could do it this way:

If someone wants to break down the costs here at some time to run a comparison, go ahead.

"Normal Season"

Registration
Kickoff
The 6 week experience
1 Regional Event
(additional regional event)
The Championship Event
2 Off-Seasons (just for arguments sake for an average number)


"Modified season"
Registration
Kickoff
The 6 weeks experience
1 Regional Event (may as well)
NO CHAMPIONSHIP EVENT
8 off seasons (again for arguments sake / half of your estimated 16 number)

The cost difference will obviously be how many regional events you attend, & the lack of a Championship Event for the modified season.

The factor that could actually push the "modified season" well over the cost of a "normal season" would be lodging & travel expenses for off-seasons (which are usually low, but if you want to make that your big travel expenditures, it could add up fast.)

What could also effect this, is something I heard briefly but don't know the details of yet.
if teams are allowed to carry over their conrol systems from year to year, & they interface with the software that run the field the same every year, then you could theoretically invest money in that type of system next year, & then ONLY do off-season events (providing it was ok with the organizers of the off-season) A lot of times Off-seasons have a banner rule that as long as the robot competed in an "official event" then they are good to go for the off-season.

This may change that sometimes unspoken rule, & require off-seasons to have an inspection process.

No new way of thinking is ever perfect the first time it is presented, but that doesn't mean it's not possible.

This could actually have potential for some teams in the future, with a large expense of a brand new kit (re: official registration) investment once every comple of years if that.
Hopefully if a team ever decided to do this, they wouldn't be seen as "playing the system" & still get the recognition from the general FIRST community for their work.

Let's take it even a step futher, & have a flashback here.
If teams independently from FIRST or seperate organizations such as the (still alive in some form -kinda) N.E.R.D. organization or M.A.V.E.R.I.C.K. organization wanted to, they could actually recognize these teams overall in a "modified season".
I once heard talk about a cup system (like is known in Auto Racing) completely seperate from the Regional & Championship level of official FRC practices, where a team could attend multiple Off-Seasons who were part of the "cup race", & the teams who only wanted to participate in these off seasons, and not the normal season, could sign up & get points for this & win a big trophy at the end.

This is a meshing of a million ideas, but it could happen in the future given the way this program is growing.

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

You rcosts actually won't be anywhere near the $4800 mark for registration purposes at least.
A lot of these off-seasons are on the same weekend. if a team went to 10 a year, that would be unbelievable!

Yeah, I forgot to take that into account when I was writing that out before. Good point.
As others have said, the Single Regional and Multiple Off-season plan seems to be a good one for the Financially weak team.

[GeorgeTheEng]

Originally Posted by Corey Balint

Besides, you could always set up a theoretical six weeks. Again, its not the same, and I do agree with what you said about the time restriction aspect, Alan, but that can be substituted easily with setting up your own set of guidelines for building.

I see a problem in that. Unless you have a team that is VERY good at setting and maintaining its own deadlines, I see this not working. Because it is an internal deadline. There is not really a consequence of missing the deadline. Personally, I know that I often let my own deadlines slip for various reasons.

Aside from that, I think there is something particularly exciting and inspiring about being at the regionals and championship that is not matched in most off-season events. I'm not saying they are not good, or not exciting. There is a certain production quality aspect of the official events that puts folks in awe.

Oh, and the issue that I hammer my kids with every year! Scholarships! By not competing in official events you give up access to over $8 MILLION in college scholarships! (Hmm, maybe that right there says it all...)

[JaneYoung]

How would the FIRST goals and mission be impacted within these teams by the distancing of the teams from the official events and the program, itself?

What would be in place to help the group or the team maintain those goals -or- would the reason for entering only off-seasons be solely for the robot competition and the fun of building something?

The participants who chose only to participate in off-seasons would be stepping away from the FIRST program. As we see in the current off-seasons, rules are modified and changed. The people who participate in those events would experience many different events with lots of variations.

At what point do those participants decide that rules are made to be changed? It becomes a philosophical discussion very quickly.
Interesting thread.

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by GeorgeTheEng

I see a problem in that. Unless you have a team that is VERY good at setting and maintaining its own deadlines, I see this not working. Because it is an internal deadline. There is not really a consequence of missing the deadline. Personally, I know that I often let my own deadlines slip for various reasons.

Aside from that, I think there is something particularly exciting and inspiring about being at the regionals and championship that is not matched in most off-season events. I'm not saying they are not good, or not exciting. There is a certain production quality aspect of the official events that puts folks in awe.

Oh, and the issue that I hammer my kids with every year! Scholarships! By not competing in official events you give up access to over $8 MILLION in college scholarships! (Hmm, maybe that right there says it all...)

Very good points there. Not officially participating in the event could greatly effect the scholarships like you said. I hadn't even thought of that! That would be most tragic.

The excitement level is completely different for me as well. Only IRI rivals the excitement of an official event to me.

And yes, it is harder with the self-imposed deadlines. Everyone does become more lax, for the most part.

A good discussion. I love it.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Corey Balint

Then you could treat IRI as your championship event ...

But if you didn't have a pedigree established in FRC tournaments, would you be accepted at IRI?

The same might apply at many of the other off-season events:
"What's your team number?"
"We don't have one, we didn't enter FRC this year."
"OK, thanks for calling."

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

But if you didn't have a pedigree established in FRC tournaments, would you be accepted at IRI?

The same might apply at many of the other off-season events:
"What's your team number?"
"We don't have one, we didn't enter FRC this year."
"OK, thanks for calling."

Great point.
I thought of that as well, and yes that would be an issue. However, if you got in a few off-seasons before the IRI team selection, that could change some peoples minds. That is one awfully big "if" though.