Electric Vehicles, in favor of? or disapprove?

[Protronie]

Short answer... no f'ing way. $50 grand thats a lot of money for a toy car which is just what these electric cars are. Toys for tree huggers that buy into all this global warming propaganda.

My question for all these folks that think they keep the environment clean by buying these electric toys....

1. whats gonna happen to the batteries when they need replacing?
2. where you think the electric comes from that charges your battery over night?

No way out of it... mankind will have a impact and will leave some sort of mess behind. For me... I'll try not to leave too much rubber on the road when my V-8 stretches its muscles.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Generalx5

The theory is that instead of having gas stations, there will be a charge station, batteries stored on charging racks ready to go. You may just one day pull into a charging station and exchange a battery or two in about two minuts and be on your way. Ofcourse there will be ways to make these batteries safe, and fraud proof. These are public batteries and will be constantly replaced by the Manufacture. Well assuming that the life of the tipical battery is 2100 charges(is really way more but kept low to provide a minimum kilowatt output), and each battery is just under lets say $1800at the time of introduction to the market. You would be paying something like a dollar per charge for each battery module, the extra money would be associated to the cost of the battery and energy cost for charging. The vehicle range is dependant on Load and how many battery modules the vehicle can carry. So It seems that this is a better solution than filling tanks full for at costs much higher/litre.

How much does it cost the "gas" station to keep inventory? Since the energy density within the battery is worse than that of gasoline, it stands to reason that the batteries are going to take up more space, and be harder to deliver to the station, than an equivalent quantity of fuel.

What happens if I pay for the battery, and don't return it? Do I need to put down a deposit, or something like that? What happens if I damage the pack, but subtly, so that you don't know that anything was wrong (until someone's car dies)? (Basically, it's like letting some random person decide whether or not to taint all the fuel that goes into your car with something that will ruin it, like nitromethane or corn syrup.) I know you said "fraud proof", but I'm wondering how you would pull it off. Some protection against tampering is necessary in order for that business model to succeed, and it's equally important that that protection is cost-effective.

Are you sure about the number of charges? That sounds pretty high, especially assuming that it will be probably be fully discharged, and fully recharged every time.

[Jay H 237]

Originally Posted by kramarczyk

60 km/ charge = 37.5 mi/charge... Nope, it won't do round trip to the shop. And even if it did, the charge time would probably get me during build season.

Bingo! I wouldn't be interested in it either. I drive 60 miles atleast a day and that car is only good for that or maybe a little more. Even with that range there's no way for me to plug it in at work to even recharge it if I wanted.

Currently vehicles that are strictly electric powered are limited to small distances so even those that buy them aren't making much of an impact to help the enviroment at all.


(I should mention my commuter car is a 4 cyl (2.2) Camry that now costs me $60 or so to fill the tank. Overall not bad as when you factor all the costs in besides the gas like the low personal property tax and having only liability on it as it's 11 years old (1997 model) all paid for and has been for a few years now. If the car was new then I'd get hit on the property tax and be also required to have collision and comprehensive on it too if leased or making payments. You have to weigh everything when deciding if it's worth it or not to switch to another vehicle, same as to what Sanddrag was referring too.)

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Generalx5

The theory is that instead of having gas stations, there will be a charge station, batteries stored on charging racks ready to go. You may just one day pull into a charging station and exchange a battery or two in about two minuts and be on your way.

I don't think you can just "exchange a battery or two" capable of powering a car for quite a distance without first eating an enormous amount of spinach. Even if they were lithium-based, batteries capable of powering a car will most likely weigh on the order of a few hundred pounds.

The only way in which electric cars will be successful and gain a sizable market share is when they cost less than $30,000 and have a 200+ mile range per charge cycle. A lot of people own more than one car, and I'm sure these would be the kind of people who would buy an electric car as their second/commuting car.

Now if we want the electric car to be able to take over the primary car role, we need to get super-capacitor technology cheap enough for mass production in cars. (Batteries don't have high enough energy density, and the whole idea of using hydrogen fuel cells to power cars is a boondoggle). But with super-capacitors, we can have electric cars that can recharge in only a few minutes - literally just as fast as refilling the tank.

The technology for this already exists. In Shanghai, China, there are two bus routes which use electric super-capacitor buses. The buses are electric, and at every bus stop an "electric umbrella" recharges the super-capacitors on the bus. Now there is still a lot of progress to be made in the area of super-capacitors, but the trends so far are promising.

As long as there are sufficient recharging facilities available, using an electric super-capacitor car would be no different than driving an internal combustion one. With the price of gas forever stuck on the upward spiral, renewable energy sources slowly becoming more widespread, and with environmental sustainability increasing in importance, super-capacitor technology is one way which we can have fully electric cars without sacrificing features we've grown accustomed to having.

[Generalx5]

Electrics arent easy to start with, but once it gets on a roll, it is easy to say that these technologies are readily available. Gasoline has has a long history, it isnt easy to make either, it requires the process of refining and trucking from the plant to stations abroad. So with a little time, I dont think batteries are going to be a pain. There are ways to recycle batteries such as li_ion batts. We just have to get it started.

[kE7JLM]

Originally Posted by Generalx5

... has a range of 60km per charge. ...

You are right about most facts but you you cut the range short. Eletric Cars today call go up to 300 miles.
Here is a quote from the tesla site -
"It's light, durable, recyclable, and it is capable of delivering enough power to accelerate the Tesla Roadster from 0 to 60 mph in under 4 seconds. Meanwhile, the battery stores enough energy for the vehicle to travel about 220 miles without recharging, something no other production electric vehicle in history can claim."


Here is the site - http://www.teslamotors.com/

Truely is ground breaking, altouth this one may break the 50k, the same company will be relesing a sedan sytle car that is cheaper and will have the same range just a slower acceleration.

On a side note, if you bought an eletric car for 50k and it only goes 60km, you got ripped off.

[Chris_Elston]

Originally Posted by Billfred

Now, does my CR-V get better mileage than a Yukon Hybrid? In most cases, yes. Will a Yukon Hybrid haul more cargo than my CR-V? Absolutely. If I had an appreciable need for a full-size SUV, I'd consider it. Since I don't have a need for a full-size SUV, I'm content just photographing it.

Several people already hit on this, but I believe the same. Our way of living will more than likely change. SUV's and "recreational" life will cease to exist at the current climb of gas prices. If you look at oil futures.....

"some link I found using google"
http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html

We are buying gas at the pump when oil was $100-$110 a barrel prices. Oil futures show $126, that means gas prices WILL GO UP.

I can't justify a truck anymore or SUV for that matter. I won't be owning an RV, boat, or anything like that. Pretty soon if I need anything hauled like "cargo" I'll be farming it out to some new businesses in town "We Haul Your Cargo, Inc."

PS, don't forget about.
http://www.aptera.com/

On a side note, why on earth do electric cars have to be butt ugly? Now Telsa Motors got it right, but geez, $100K??? wow... not in my price range.

I'll buy a Toyota Prius, but not for the LOOKS. My family and friends call it the "clown" car. I have to agree, but I'll give up styling to save some money at the pump. Every other electric car I've seen looks "funny" to me....including "Smart Car" http://www.smartusa.com/

I'm looking into motorcycles now to get back and forth to work. Some Honda bikes get 140 MPG for a 250 cc.

[falconmaster]

Just want to add more info the the knowledge base.
There is a lot of misinformation out there due to the auto and oil industry. GM bought all the new battery technology. they even got rid of their car they made that worked too well. You need to see Who Killed The Electric Car
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/
We used to convert full sized internal combustion cars to electric for $5000.00 dollars and they would go 70 to 90 miles at 55mph on golf cart batteries! Nothing like they have now. It cost about 1 to 2 cents per mile. These were cars that were never meant to be electric in the first place. This is first hand experience, electric cars work and they are not expensive. They just need to have even footing in the auto industry.
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education...detailid=27984
We eventually had cars that could go 100mph!
Here is a video of one of our cars
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...89431436364669

Here is another video of our cars
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education...detailid=41964
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...13119287131358

Ford told the dealers in AZ no to help any schools make any more cars because we were making them look bad.
Here are two companies that are developing modern electric cars and the price could drop if they were mass produced. This would make the price of the vehicles comparable to current vehicles.
AC Propulsion
http://www.acpropulsion.com/
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/pricing.htm
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/media.htm
http://www.stefanoparis.com/piaev/ac...stPeekMov.html
The sports car version
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
Video gallery
http://www.acpropulsion.com/vehicles/gallery.htm

Tesla Motors
http://www.teslamotors.com/

Remember these are not mass produced in any numbers even approaching a fraction of any car built by the big auto companies. If they were the price would be much much less. They new electric car companies also picked a battery platform that the auto industry could not buy out. Lithium Polymer like they use in portable electronic devices, like cell phones and lap tops.

Hope this info helps out the argument. Electric cars are more than capable to replace 90 percent of all driving needs and at a cost that is no more than traditional automobiles.

[Protronie]

The day someone builds a electric car that looks like a real car, can travel at least 400 miles @ 70 MPH while running a/c, lights, stereo, and all the rest of the toys my gas burner has and can be recharged as easy and quick as pulling up to a pump and filling the tank then come talk to me... otherwise get out of my way or I blow your electric whinny-wagon off the road.

When we run out of gas I'll start making moonshine and burn that in my gas burner.

-p (proud owner of the fastest Duster in NC)

Originally Posted by Chris_Elston

Several people already hit on this, but I believe the same. Our way of living will more than likely change. SUV's and "recreational" life will cease to exist at the current climb of gas prices. If you look at oil futures.....

"some link I found using google"
http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html

We are buying gas at the pump when oil was $100-$110 a barrel prices. Oil futures show $126, that means gas prices WILL GO UP.

I can't justify a truck anymore or SUV for that matter. I won't be owning an RV, boat, or anything like that. Pretty soon if I need anything hauled like "cargo" I'll be farming it out to some new businesses in town "We Haul Your Cargo, Inc."

PS, don't forget about.
http://www.aptera.com/

On a side note, why on earth do electric cars have to be butt ugly? Now Telsa Motors got it right, but geez, $100K??? wow... not in my price range.

I'll buy a Toyota Prius, but not for the LOOKS. My family and friends call it the "clown" car. I have to agree, but I'll give up styling to save some money at the pump. Every other electric car I've seen looks "funny" to me....including "Smart Car" http://www.smartusa.com/

I'm looking into motorcycles now to get back and forth to work. Some Honda bikes get 140 MPG for a 250 cc.

here is another scary but rather realistic look ahead:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/5856...ed-much-higher

You're comments about giving up certain things like recreation involving a motorized vehicle I think are going to become a reality and rather soon for many, I think this is the last year we can carry on business almost as usual...even with small trucks and cars, I just downgraded to a nice small 4 cly truck but already the cost to fill it is getting up there.

Ironicly I was just watching a clip with David Suzuki on the weather network up here and he was saying exactly the same things that within the next five years we will be living, working, playing all within walking distance and that will also help solve the obeseity problem as well in north america.

As for electric cars I think what needs to happen right away is the "oil companies" who run the "gas stations" to get into the battery business as well as sell gas, then the major auto makers need to make electric cars and these gas stations would be swapping out charged batteries for dead ones, instead of buying gas you would by power in the the form of a battery. Just like you exchange near empty propane tanks for full ones.


Keep in mind only the major automakers can get cars certified for the road by the transportation safety board easily so they are going to have to do this.

The oil or energy companies have to come on board as well and once they realize there is big money in it they will.

What scares me is how high prices will go before something happens, keep inm mind new electric cars have to be in all price ranges and available as do the batteries, this won't happen overnight but oil is going only one place and thats up so someone better bet moving on this before we end up in a depression.

Originally Posted by falconmaster

Just want to add more info the the knowledge base.
There is a lot of misinformation out there due to the auto and oil industry. GM bought all the new battery technology. they even got rid of their car they made that worked too well. You need to see Who Killed The Electric Car
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/
We used to convert full sized internal combustion cars to electric for $5000.00 dollars and they would go 70 to 90 miles at 55mph on golf cart batteries! Nothing like they have now. It cost about 1 to 2 cents per mile. These were cars that were never meant to be electric in the first place. This is first hand experience, electric cars work and they are not expensive. They just need to have even footing in the auto industry.
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education...detailid=27984
We eventually had cars that could go 100mph!
Here is a video of one of our cars
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...89431436364669

Here is another video of our cars
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education...detailid=41964
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...13119287131358

Ford told the dealers in AZ no to help any schools make any more cars because we were making them look bad.
Here are two companies that are developing modern electric cars and the price could drop if they were mass produced. This would make the price of the vehicles comparable to current vehicles.
AC Propulsion
http://www.acpropulsion.com/
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/pricing.htm
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/media.htm
http://www.stefanoparis.com/piaev/ac...stPeekMov.html
The sports car version
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
Video gallery
http://www.acpropulsion.com/vehicles/gallery.htm

Tesla Motors
http://www.teslamotors.com/

Remember these are not mass produced in any numbers even approaching a fraction of any car built by the big auto companies. If they were the price would be much much less. They new electric car companies also picked a battery platform that the auto industry could not buy out. Lithium Polymer like they use in portable electronic devices, like cell phones and lap tops.

Hope this info helps out the argument. Electric cars are more than capable to replace 90 percent of all driving needs and at a cost that is no more than traditional automobiles.

What I am wondering is why the big guys like GM then don't jump on the big money that is there to be made in going electric if they have the technology....only problem I see is how fast they could make them as people would line up to buy them, of course the oil companies would have to also sell batteries etc for fast recharge/go type of setup and like propane or natural gas....good luck finding it at the local gas station, not that many have it so you can't rely on it.

$127+/barrel right now....easy $150 by august, electric cars and trucks better come soon...before we all go under.

[falconmaster]

Originally Posted by Mark Rozitis

What I am wondering is why the big guys like GM then don't jump on the big money that is there to be made in going electric if they have the technology....only problem I see is how fast they could make them as people would line up to buy them, of course the oil companies would have to also sell batteries etc for fast recharge/go type of setup and like propane or natural gas....good luck finding it at the local gas station, not that many have it so you can't rely on it.

$127+/barrel right now....easy $150 by august, electric cars and trucks better come soon...before we all go under.

one thing people have to get over is "filling" an electric car with electricity. How long are you parked daily? I'll bet there is an outlet no too far from where you park and the infrastructure is very easy to modify to accommodate this. Here is a picture of some such chargers at LAX when pilots who used GMs EV1 would use the opportunity chargers at the airport. Unlike conventional automobiles, electric cars can charge when parked. You will never have to go to a gas station again!

[falconmaster]

Originally Posted by Chris_Elston

Several people already hit on this, but I believe the same. Our way of living will more than likely change. SUV's and "recreational" life will cease to exist at the current climb of gas prices. If you look at oil futures.....

"some link I found using google"
http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html

We are buying gas at the pump when oil was $100-$110 a barrel prices. Oil futures show $126, that means gas prices WILL GO UP.

I can't justify a truck anymore or SUV for that matter. I won't be owning an RV, boat, or anything like that. Pretty soon if I need anything hauled like "cargo" I'll be farming it out to some new businesses in town "We Haul Your Cargo, Inc."

PS, don't forget about.
http://www.aptera.com/

On a side note, why on earth do electric cars have to be butt ugly? Now Telsa Motors got it right, but geez, $100K??? wow... not in my price range.

I'll buy a Toyota Prius, but not for the LOOKS. My family and friends call it the "clown" car. I have to agree, but I'll give up styling to save some money at the pump. Every other electric car I've seen looks "funny" to me....including "Smart Car" http://www.smartusa.com/

I'm looking into motorcycles now to get back and forth to work. Some Honda bikes get 140 MPG for a 250 cc.

Mass production will drop the cost from 100k to 50k and lower. This is the key to all the other cars out there. They make 50,000 of each model, that is how they get the price down. This has never happened with electric cars to date.

[Generalx5]

So here are some things that the people are looking for in an electric car.

-Long range per charge
-Super fast charging
-Has to look like a car, not a golf cart.
-Needs good acceleration
-Needs to be within budget Under $50,000.
-Needs a battery recycling program
-Requires little or less than traditional Vehicles

Please let me know if I've missed anything.

At the moment. I dont think a vehicle with all these factors above can give you something under $50,000.

Gasoline vehicles are very problematic, we were lucky to have 100 years to perfect all its problems, and build addequit infrastructure for them. Electric vehicles dont have 100 years to evolve, so dont be expecting a smooth transition between gas to electric.

From what I already know, if we were dealing with Li-Ion batteries, there wouldnt be much of an environmental issue, its the lead acid batteries that require proper disposal. And im sure, there will be more and more solar and wind as well as hydro electricity power plants instead of coal plants in the near future. The reason for owning an electric is not only because of fuel costs, but also because of our increase production of carbon dioxide.

Planes would need a solution too......Planes are a huge producer of CO2.

[GaryVoshol]

Gas prices in Europe have been high for decades, and they don't have a huge electric car population or supporting infrastructure. I realize there are differences between Europe and North America - for example distances are much shorter in Europe and there is better public transportation. But the European makers haven't gone into electric on a large scale. Maybe even at the prices of their fuel - until recently at least $5.00 per gallon, higher in many countries - electric vehicles still don't make economic sense.

Cars that can burn E85 ethanol have been available from major American manufacturers for at least 15 years. Before a year ago, where could you find a gas station that had an E85 pump? I don't think the stations will be in a hurry to install swap-n-charge battery systems.

Massive replacement of gasoline vehicles with electrics would cause huge burdens on the existing electric grid. People claim the primary charging would be done overnight. In reality, you'd come home from work and plug in the car - at the same time everyone else is coming home and turning on appliances and lights, and air conditioning load is peaking. You wouldn't wait until bedtime to plug in the car - at least not after the first time you woke up at 3:00 am and had to go out because you forgot to plug in earlier. Or even worse, forgot completely and had to call the boss and explain why you'd be late.