Another pointless lawsuit in the works.. (taping students in for curfew)

[Tristan Lall]

Sure, tape them in. A lot of good that will do. If someone wants to break curfew, all they need to do is untape their door, and then untape all of the other doors.

As to the litigiousness, I think this is more a case of someone making idle threats. Consider that the article says "file charges", not "file suit". So it seems like they want to have the chaperone criminally indicted. Good luck with that. What would you charge them with, if the student was in fact able to open the door to exit in an emergency? Maybe there's a misdemeanour for violating the fire code?

[DonRotolo]

Well, it's not a lawsuit yet.

I have a feeling the kid and his parent misunderstood the quantity of tape being applied. An entire roll of good duct tape, carefully applied, might slow a hotel room door from opening in 130 milliseconds to, say, 480 mS, but surely the chaperones used a small strip (who has the time to really tape a whole door shut).

Now, if they had welded the door shut, I'd agree with the safety hazard. The hotel might frown upon that practice however.

Chapersones do need to account for some kids being more sensitive. We had a student one year who literally collapsed into tears when a man with dark skin walked towards him in the hallway. This poor businessman was just going to his room, and the kid had led an insulated life, and had never been within touching distance from someone who was not caucasian. It all ended well, but some time had to be spent calming him down. He is quite normal today, by the way.

So, all that had to happen was a statement form the chaperones: "We are putting a small strip of tape on your door, which will get unstuck if the door is opened. That's how we'll know if the door opened after curfew."


Don

PS:
Little did the chaperones know, but the astute student had learned how to re-stick the tape from inside the room...

[Protronie]

I sitting here shaking my head. Oh yeah there will be a lawsuit,and the school board will have many heated meetings over this. And there will be a few new rules and maybe someone will be forced to resign...

My question is....

Whats the big deal? Does anyone here really think that duct taping a door will keep it from opening? As for fire safety... smoke from the hall would have a tough time getting under the door.
Its a shame that someone felt the need to tape the door but I'm very sure they felt the need.
Its a shame the news media is jumping on this as they seem to be doing.
And its a shame that after this some will refuse to take kids on trips again and some groups might not be able to go on any future trips.

I guess next time they will just post a guard in the hall.

-p

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

So, all that had to happen was a statement form the chaperones: "We are putting a small strip of tape on your door, which will get unstuck if the door is opened. That's how we'll know if the door opened after curfew."

Agreed. There are high school students who do not travel and stay in hotels in groups unless they join a club or team. There isn't necessarily a lot of experience available to tap into as a resource or buffer. There's a lot of change, maturing, growth, and new experiences between 14 and 18, hopefully with some guidance along the way.

[intellec7]

In my opinion, this issue shouldn't have escalated into a lawsuit, but I can concede into understanding the frustration and worry that both the student and the parent feels.

It's uneasy to know that you're not trusted when you believe that you should be. Honestly, if a student can't be trusted, it's the trip coordinator's responsibility to not not grant that student the privilege of traveling. What is not the coordinator's responsibility is to create a 24-hour alarm system that makes it obvious when there has been an infraction. That's silly.

Those who may be accused of "thinking too much" might argue that a student may feel so uncomfortable, that if he or she awakes in the middle of the night and feels the need to obtain something to drink, that student might spend an uncomfortable night because of fear of the sever punishment that results from breaking curfew. Is that the type of system you want to employ: Instilling fear so that students abide by the rules? Of course it tends to work in society, but I'd like to think that any members of a robotics team would be a more mature than that.

It's about respect I think. We have a "watchdog" that monitors our halls when we go on trips. I honestly think she should be getting a good night's sleep instead of terrorizing kids by patrolling the traffic in our hallways.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by intellec7

In my opinion, this issue shouldn't have escalated into a lawsuit, but I can concede into understanding the frustration and worry that both the student and the parent feels.

It's uneasy to know that you're not trusted when you believe that you should be. Honestly, if a student can't be trusted, it's the trip coordinator's responsibility to not not grant that student the privilege of traveling. What is not the coordinator's responsibility is to create a 24-hour alarm system that makes it obvious when there has been an infraction. That's silly.

Those who may be accused of "thinking too much" might argue that a student may feel so uncomfortable, that if he or she awakes in the middle of the night and feels the need to obtain something to drink, that student might spend an uncomfortable night because of fear of the sever punishment that results from breaking curfew. Is that the type of system you want to employ: Instilling fear so that students abide by the rules? Of course it tends to work in society, but I'd like to think that any members of a robotics team would be a more mature than that.

It's about respect I think. We have a "watchdog" that monitors our halls when we go on trips. I honestly think she should be getting a good night's sleep instead of terrorizing kids by patrolling the traffic in our hallways.

Terrorizing kids? come on. Who's been terrorized by having someone supervise them?

It's a teacher/mentor/chaperone's responsibility to make sure that the kids are safe. If they think there are no consequences to breaking the rules, then it becomes a lot easier to break them. It has nothing to do with trust. Good kids do dumb things. Everyone does dumb things. If you have the ability to head off those dumb things before they become a reality, with no adverse effect on anybody (you'd have a real hard time convincing me a piece of tape on a kid's door is harming them), then why not?

If you're not leaving the room having tape on it shouldn't even affect you. If you're thirsty, you have a sink. If something happens and you *had* to open the door, call the teacher. I'm sure they'd be happy to know that you weren't running around the city at 3 am and just needed to let housekeeping in because there weren't enough towels for everybody.

Besides, all this assumes that said teacher isn't devious enough to have other methods of knowing you've left your room besides a piece of tape

[EricH]

Originally Posted by intellec7

In my opinion, this issue shouldn't have escalated into a lawsuit, but I can concede into understanding the frustration and worry that both the student and the parent feels.

I think we all feel the same way.

Originally Posted by intellec7

It's uneasy to know that you're not trusted when you believe that you should be. Honestly, if a student can't be trusted, it's the trip coordinator's responsibility to not not grant that student the privilege of traveling. What is not the coordinator's responsibility is to create a 24-hour alarm system that makes it obvious when there has been an infraction. That's silly.

The question is, how does the trip coordinator know before the trip that a student can't be trusted? Especially if it's a big group? Yes, there are ways, but the coordinator might not notice the signs or might ignore them.

Also, what happens in a classroom when someone breaks a rule and is not punished? Wouldn't other students copy that? So an indicator that a rule has been broken enables the administrator to deal with it before it gets out of control.

On my old team, we had a system: at curfew, the phones in the students' rooms would ring and we'd hear, "Is everyone there?" to which we'd say who was and wasn't. The one or two times someone wasn't in their room and wasn't under permission to be out past curfew, there were consequences--once for the individual student and the other time in a earlier curfew for the whole team.

Originally Posted by intellec7

Those who may be accused of "thinking too much" might argue that a student may feel so uncomfortable, that if he or she awakes in the middle of the night and feels the need to obtain something to drink, that student might spend an uncomfortable night because of fear of the sever punishment that results from breaking curfew. Is that the type of system you want to employ: Instilling fear so that students abide by the rules? Of course it tends to work in society, but I'd like to think that any members of a robotics team would be a more mature than that.

This wasn't a robotics team, but I see your point. That said, it's a rare thing for water not to be available in the room and the students have plenty of time (presumably) before curfew to get other drinks and have those in the room. I can't think of a reason to be out post-curfew, unless there's a group activity that goes long, in which case curfew would of course be extended. Instilling fear? Maybe. I see it as a lesson. The students have an obligation to respect the rules, and in the real world, when rules are broken, somebody suffers.

Originally Posted by intellec7

It's about respect I think. We have a "watchdog" that monitors our halls when we go on trips. I honestly think she should be getting a good night's sleep instead of terrorizing kids by patrolling the traffic in our hallways.

Do you respect the adults? Then you would stay in your rooms and the "watchdog" wouldn't be needed. It is all about respect, but respect goes both ways. The teachers should have your respect because they are your teachers; you have to earn it. The best way to earn it is to demonstrate that you are worthy of it. No broken seals, no encounters with the "watchdog", no violations of trust--those will earn the respect of the teachers and they will probably be willing to give you a little more leeway. (Assuming that district/school regulations allow it, of course.)

[ebarker]

I smell an opportunity here. Imagine this.

A computer in the hotel management office, networked to door sensors through out the hotel.

When the group checks in, the room door sensors are assigned to a group like "my robot team" and the clerk assigns a room(s) to be group leader.

So what happens is the computer monitors all the group doors, thereby creating 'virtual tape'. If the 'virtual tape' is broken then immediate notification is sent to the group leader.

The alarm sent to the group leader wake her up and makes her very cranky and she sends group goons out to chase kids back to their rooms.

The notification is immediate, you don't have to wait to check tape the next day, hours after potential problems.

Business opportunity knocks. Is there an engineer in the house ?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

"Taping" is a common practice when chaperones need some sleep and there is suspect students on the trip. A small piece of tape is placed across the door and jamb such that it will show if someone has opened the door. It cannot be replaced by someone inside the room but serves no purpose in keeping the door from opening. Most hotels now frown on this activity as it damages the paint. However, in a real world, you would not take a student on a trip if you did not trust them. But as all good chaperones know, even a well behaved 20 year old will act like a 12 year old every once in a while. I also know of some teams that hire security guards to watch the hallway to keep students in their rooms. What ever works for the team, school district and students is determined on a team by team, school by school basis.

[artdutra04]

People need to learn to follow the rules not because they are forced to, but because it is the best decision not only for everyone, but mostly importantly themselves.

Taping doors would be like putting a speed governor on any car driven by someone under the age of 18. An artificial limiter to prevent the person from breaking the speeding law does not address the root of the problem, which is the decision-making process of that person.

I'm not a fan of taping doors for high school students. (Although it's generally a good idea for middle school students). Rather, I intend to teach the students that they have a responsibility to don't do dumb things, and that I place a level of trust on them to follow these rules. If they screw up, then they better be prepared for absolute zero-tolerance discipline.

This has always been the philosophy of my high school team. Over the past six years, there has not been a single issue. In fact, in general the students have been so respectful of the rules, that there was an occasion a few years ago where they found a six-pack of beer in the hotel room in one of the drawers when they first checked in, and immediately notified the mentors and gave it to them. Why? Because they knew if they tried to hide it and the mentors found out, there wouldn't be any more robotics team for them.

As a mentor, I want to teach the students that even though they may have many chances throughout life to make bad decisions - whether now it's breaking curfew on field trips or later on it may be smoking/doing drugs or driving under the influence - they need to make a conscientious decision to always choose the right thing to do. Because in a few years, if they find themselves at a nightclub and they come across ecstasy, there won't be a strip of tape there to stop them.

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I remember a speech the head of Xerox Robotics Gene Wicks told our kids one time about taping them into their rooms: "If we have to tape you into your rooms, we're not taking you."

Bingo in my mind. Our team does't tape doors either. And as Art suggests, I think its far better to teach the students respect and making the right decisions. Do we really care if the kid wants to go get a bucket of Ice at midnight? No. Do we generally find out if someone does something wrong? Yeah. We have a student leadership group that I like to think is very open with me, and we often discuss problems on the team. Not once has breaking curfew been a problem.

In my mind, I go back to that when I was in school, I never had a curfew at home (trips, all except my first year in robotics). My rule was just that I had to tell my dad when I was going to be home and where I was. If I was going to be late, or if I was going to go somewhere else, I would call my dad and let him know. I dont think he ever said no, a few times he probably said I should be home a bit earlier, but in general, he taught me to make good decisions, so he trusted me. To this day, a lot of times when I go home to visit I will call to let him know where Im going

Now as for the potential lawsuit, I think its a bit of an overreaction to sue. No one was actually hurt. But as a few people have said, I can also understand the kid having a panic attack. We have several kids that had never been on group trips before, and several that have been sheltered, and several that I could see overrreacting or getting upset at things. I think Jane is right in that the biggest deal is communication. We dont know from the article if it was or wasnt communicated, presumably not, but who knows. If the chaperones were reasonable and the kid was nervous about it, they could tape the door and ask him to open it so that he would see that it wasnt going to keep him stuck in there. But I also have to wonder if the kid was that worried, why didnt he or the other students in the room call a chaperone as soon as it happened to alleviate it?

I think we need to teach students to act respectfully, but communication is also a two way street. We should all do our best to make sure everyone understand, but being a team leader, I could see that after a while, you might forget a thing or two that might upset a kid. But really now adays, the things that get the news and that get people upset are so minor in comparison to the big picture, and this definitely seems like it could easily be solved without a lawsuit.

[ebarker]

As a mentor - If the kid needs taping, they they are staying home. We don't have the right kid.

If I were a student - I would not want to be in a group that needed taping. If I were a teenager I would most likely refuse the trip and get a new activity.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by ebarker

As a mentor - If the kid needs taping, they they are staying home. We don't have the right kid.

I know this arguement has been used in the past, but don't those kids need FIRST and be surrounded and influenced by postive role models the most?

I think some responsiblity has to be placed on the students who have to attempt to discourge rule breaking. Parents and mentors can influence those troubled students, but in the end the person's peers influence them the most. Instead of taping doors or not taking potentially troubled students, the students need to create a culture where breaking the rules is looked down upon and not tolerated.

[Wayne Doenges]

This may be a little off topic.
What do you think would happen if, in the opinion of the judge, that a lawsuit was frivolous and the lawyer was fined? Do you think there would be less stupid lawsuits?

Our team does not tape doors. We tell the students that they must be in their rooms at such and such a time. They don't have to go to sleep but they must be in their rooms. We do a hall check at the curfew time to make sure.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

I know this arguement has been used in the past, but don't those kids need FIRST and be surrounded and influenced by postive role models the most?

Yes they do need FIRST and they do need the peer group to pressure them to go do the right thing. And what I'm saying is they I'd prefer to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and see if they can behave. That might be naive but I think it is a better outcome than having a lockdown. Like I said I might be naive and optimistic.

If something were to really happen I'm sure I could ask the desk clerk for door transaction report (generated by the card keys) to run down the culprit.

There are a lot of people here with a lot more experience in this than I have but my fundamental tendency is to ask for a certain level of behavior and if they manage to get themselves in trouble then they will have to face the consequences.

I'm just sitting here thinking about mentor/parent roles. When do we allow someone to 'get themselves into a hole' so the student can have the learning experience. Obviously we don't want to endanger someone, but....

We talk about students running a team and building robots we talk about the students to making decisions, with the mentors helping them make informed decisions. Are these decision just limited to the robot ? or do they extend to how to behave in the hotel ? and everywhere else ?

When I was young I was given a lot of leeway in my decision making, but I had a lot of responsibility also. The times I made what you might call 'not well considered' decisions came with some pretty tough consequences that led to some character building moments.

I'm not recommending anyone test the waters but simply to expect standards of behavior and accountability.