Electric Vehicles, in favor of? or disapprove?

[JoeXIII'007]

Electric Vehicles:
not in favor nor in complete disapproval.
I am more in favor of a massive implementation of a more fuel efficient/electric(efficient?) vehicle per traveler.

2 cents...
-Joe

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

I'm not terribly confident in the near future of hybrid technology either. GM next year will be releasing a hybrid (wait for it.....) Yukon. I mean seriously, what are they thinking? It costs like another $15,000+ over a regular Yukon, has a gigantic 6L engine still, and only gets another 5mpg. The point is?

There is so much misinformation about electric and hybrid vehicles floating around I almost feel guilty about this. The Yukon is built on GM's full-size truck chassis, which also gets hybrid power in 2009. Working people need trucks, and the market for a pickup with great mileage is probably two to four times larger than that of big SUVs. The Yukon gets the hybrid powerplant because it's the cousin of the pickup, and was a big-bucks luxury-SUV platform to launch the new powertrain.

I spent five minutes Googling on this, and found real-world mileage tests (as opposed to the artificial EPA measures) of around 21 MPG for the hybrid and 14 for the gas engine. That's a 50% improvement -- for a vehicle that can still hold eight people and tow a 6,000 pound trailer. Try that in a Prius.

The price differential between a hybrid Yukon and a similarly-equipped gas Yukon is about $4,000. With gas at $4 a gallon, the Yukon might be one of the rarest of all vehicles -- a hybrid that makes economic sense. With a one-third reduction in fuel costs, a Yukon could pay for the "hybrid penalty" in 40,000 miles.

[Chris_Elston]

Originally Posted by Chris_Elston

"some link I found using google"
http://www.wtrg.com/daily/crudeoilprice.html

We are buying gas at the pump when oil was $100-$110 a barrel prices. Oil futures show $126, that means gas prices WILL GO UP.

Oil Futures up to $133 a barrel for July oil deliveries....sigh...

Wednesday, May 21, 2008: NYMEX West Texas Intermediate Crude Oil for July delivery closed up $4.19 at $133.17 per barrel.

Sign me up for that electric car.

[Protronie]

Wow... that hybrid Yukon is one I would be interested in.
Another vehicle that I'm really interested in is the Ford Escape hybrid. In fact I've been pushing for my employer to buy a few hundred of them. Or at least buy my division a few dozen. Last month gas bill was $39,870

I believe the hybrids make more sense than the pure electric vehicles.
I have yet to hear what people would do about the demands to the power grid if electric vehicles became mainstream. All them batteries being charged up got to get their power from somewhere.
If they started building today (fat chance) it would be 10 years before a new nuclear power plant came on the grid.

Slightly off topic but interesting still is the Green Goat project A small company in BC is converting old diesel switch engines to hybrids. UP & BSNF both have orders for more of them.

-p

[Generalx5]

I just got back from a trip to Shanghai. Ive never been so fast in my entire life, that is on the ground at least. The object I am talking about is not a car, but a maglev. I was sitting on a train at 430km/h, never have I been so fast, so close to the ground. I like the idea of electric powered everything...

[Adam Y.]

Originally Posted by falconmaster

Just want to add more info the the knowledge base.
There is a lot of misinformation out there due to the auto and oil industry. GM bought all the new battery technology. they even got rid of their car they made that worked too well. You need to see Who Killed The Electric Car
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/
We used to convert full sized internal combustion cars to electric for $5000.00 dollars and they would go 70 to 90 miles at 55mph on golf cart batteries! Nothing like they have now. It cost about 1 to 2 cents per mile. These were cars that were never meant to be electric in the first place. This is first hand experience, electric cars work and they are not expensive. They just need to have even footing in the auto industry.
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education...detailid=27984
We eventually had cars that could go 100mph!
Here is a video of one of our cars
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...89431436364669

Here is another video of our cars
http://www.phxhs.k12.az.us/education...detailid=41964
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...13119287131358

Ford told the dealers in AZ no to help any schools make any more cars because we were making them look bad.
Here are two companies that are developing modern electric cars and the price could drop if they were mass produced. This would make the price of the vehicles comparable to current vehicles.
AC Propulsion
http://www.acpropulsion.com/
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/pricing.htm
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/media.htm
http://www.stefanoparis.com/piaev/ac...stPeekMov.html
The sports car version
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
Video gallery
http://www.acpropulsion.com/vehicles/gallery.htm

Tesla Motors
http://www.teslamotors.com/

Remember these are not mass produced in any numbers even approaching a fraction of any car built by the big auto companies. If they were the price would be much much less. They new electric car companies also picked a battery platform that the auto industry could not buy out. Lithium Polymer like they use in portable electronic devices, like cell phones and lap tops.

Hope this info helps out the argument. Electric cars are more than capable to replace 90 percent of all driving needs and at a cost that is no more than traditional automobiles.

I don't think I've ever read something so factually wrong in my life. What you call "works" is what most sane engineers would call horrible. There are still way too many problems that makes what your saying a pipe dream.

They new electric car companies also picked a battery platform that the auto industry could not buy out. Lithium Polymer like they use in portable electronic devices, like cell phones and lap tops.

That's not the reason why. Lithium Ion battery packs would be the right choice even if the auto industry owned the patents to them. They are more suitable for the application minus the whole blowing up part. Though NIMH batteries and Lithium Ion batteries still are not the ideal battery because most people don't want to sit around waiting for their car to recharge.

Originally Posted by Generalx5

Electrical energy is clean and produces no carbon dioxide, yes the power plants may be using coal, but if the automobile company devoted money into solar and wind energy to undo the carbon dioxide production at another power plant, would this be fair to say that the energy on these vehicles are from a clean source?

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar...index.jsp?id=1

GM just announced it is closing four plants including the truck plant in Oshawa ontario that makes the big trucks that no one can afford to drive even if given one for free but this Chev Volt might just be the next big thing and beat hybrid right out of business, this sounds really good, run on battery and when the battery runs down the engine drives the car and charges the battery and when at home just plug it in to charge.....that is going to be the next big thing I'm sure.

I was just covering an event in Toronto, some green tree hugging event and the City of Toronto had one of these cars on display.

Now if GM and others use the same technology to make small/medium trucks as well that would be even better.

I just got lucky, I was able to find a Chev Colorado 4 cyl 2.8 4x4 and get rid of my big GMC 2500 and at today's fuel prices and the driving I do in the business I would be into $145/day in fuel.

I am still working at trying to make everything fit and need to figure out how to build and design some better compartments, cable reels and stuff all in the little truck ( I am a news camera guy), but I love this truck...and the lower gas bills.

If gas goes to $1.50 or $2.00/litre I will be in trouble again.

m

Originally Posted by Generalx5

Actually, Im wrong in the first post, the 60Km range is actually from the onboard backup battery system that isnt interchangable, this battery is the one that you actually plug in to charge at night. The main batteries are actually individual modules that you can exchange at power stations.

The theory is that instead of having gas stations, there will be a charge station, batteries stored on charging racks ready to go. You may just one day pull into a charging station and exchange a battery or two in about two minuts and be on your way. Ofcourse there will be ways to make these batteries safe, and fraud proof. These are public batteries and will be constantly replaced by the Manufacture. Well assuming that the life of the tipical battery is 2100 charges(is really way more but kept low to provide a minimum kilowatt output), and each battery is just under lets say $1800at the time of introduction to the market. You would be paying something like a dollar per charge for each battery module, the extra money would be associated to the cost of the battery and energy cost for charging. The vehicle range is dependant on Load and how many battery modules the vehicle can carry. So It seems that this is a better solution than filling tanks full for at costs much higher/litre.

That was my idea! I remember posting somewhere that the one way electric would work is if "gas" or future "energy" stations had swappable batteries just like they have BBQ propane tanks here, you bring the empty tank, toss it in the cage, grab a full one, pay and go.....that's one good idea but now that I have read about the Chevy Volt I am thinking that's an even better idea.

Originally Posted by Generalx5

So here are some things that the people are looking for in an electric car.

-Long range per charge
-Super fast charging
-Has to look like a car, not a golf cart.
-Needs good acceleration
-Needs to be within budget Under $50,000.
-Needs a battery recycling program
-Requires little or less than traditional Vehicles

Please let me know if I've missed anything.

At the moment. I dont think a vehicle with all these factors above can give you something under $50,000.

Gasoline vehicles are very problematic, we were lucky to have 100 years to perfect all its problems, and build addequit infrastructure for them. Electric vehicles dont have 100 years to evolve, so dont be expecting a smooth transition between gas to electric.

From what I already know, if we were dealing with Li-Ion batteries, there wouldnt be much of an environmental issue, its the lead acid batteries that require proper disposal. And im sure, there will be more and more solar and wind as well as hydro electricity power plants instead of coal plants in the near future. The reason for owning an electric is not only because of fuel costs, but also because of our increase production of carbon dioxide.

Planes would need a solution too......Planes are a huge producer of CO2.

Problem is the price, at $50,000 only the rich can afford and they can probably pay the high gas prices, just like when Hummer came out, if they can afford the Hummer they can afford the gas.

To get mass sales whatever the newer more fuel friendly car and TRUCK is it must be under $30,000 and I mean under $30,000, whether it's the Chevy Volt or something else. If all I can afford is $12,000 or $15,000 I guess I am going to have to drive a fully gas powered car and pay the high gas prices.

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I saw a story on the CBS news last night where they speculated how the future would be with rising gas prices. How we could have a world where travel becomes far too expensive to drive or fly cross country. Where NASCAR can no longer afford to operate and where people will move back to the cites to save on travel expenses.
That people would have to give up what they do today because it costs too much to live that way. It made me think of what it would be like for FIRST. It would cost way too much for certain teams to travel and the championships would simply be out of the question. It certainly would change my travel schedule to numerous events.

I didn't see that story but I have sure read alot about what life will be like when we have $200 oil and higher, I shoot for two stations in Toronto and we had an interview clip on with David Suzuki and he mentioned that in the not to distant future we will all live, work and play within walking or biking distance.

It's hard to imagine just how big the changes will be and for someone like me who lives to drive it is severely depressing, If I go more than a day without driving around and seeing some of the beautiful ontario countryside I get depressed. That's why I've always said I could never work in an office, but yea how much fuel/oil are we using up flying alone? I think eventually and sooner like perhaps after the recession is over and oil goes for another massive run life is going to change and this is going to happen in our lifetime.

Just like climate change, it's "happening now".

David Suzuki also mentioned that it would indirectly solve the obiesity crisis as most people would be doing more walking and biking instead of using a car for everything like we do now.

Going to be interesting times, I'm not too happy about it though.

m

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Mark Rozitis

Keep in mind only the major automakers can get cars certified for the road by the transportation safety board easily

Trust me, it's no easire for them than for you and me, except they have the knowledge (they've done it before) and the resources(engineering staff, lawyers, etc). They still have to work pretty hard at it though.

Originally Posted by Mark Rozitis

What I am wondering is why the big guys like GM then don't jump on the big money that is there to be made in going electric if they have the technology

Simple: There is no big money to be made, EVs are still a losing proposition, gas is still cheaper and loads more convenient, even at $4 a gallon.

$10 a gallon, though...

MY vote is for a diesel hybrid, the (small) engine runs a generator at constant (and hyper-efficient) speed to charge the batteries, only electric motors drive the wheels and accessories. That diesel will run on vegetable oil too, and today's new BlueTec diesels are cleaner than any gasoline engine by quite a lot.

Don

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

Trust me, it's no easire for them than for you and me, except they have the knowledge (they've done it before) and the resources(engineering staff, lawyers, etc). They still have to work pretty hard at it though.

Simple: There is no big money to be made, EVs are still a losing proposition, gas is still cheaper and loads more convenient, even at $4 a gallon.

$10 a gallon, though...

MY vote is for a diesel hybrid, the (small) engine runs a generator at constant (and hyper-efficient) speed to charge the batteries, only electric motors drive the wheels and accessories. That diesel will run on vegetable oil too, and today's new BlueTec diesels are cleaner than any gasoline engine by quite a lot.

Don

yea maybe, you would think if there was big money in mass produced electric along the technology of the Chevy Volt they would have done it by now, then again maybe they too are gambling that this is just an oil bubble that will burst but 9 out of 10 analysts are saying that's not the case this time around.

Something has to happen soon, $150 oil looms next week....

Sure our lives and work will change but there will be one heck of a lot of people out of work because of this.

GM just signed a contract with it's workers and promised to keep the truck plant in Oshawa ontario open and that changed last week, the union is furious but other than the people that need it for absolute necessity for the business...who can afford the fuel for those trucks? No wonder GM had to make a tough business decision.

I just hope they start making more small trucks, we had the S10, now the colorado/canyon but we neen more because not everyone can fit into a tiny car.

Things are sure looking rather bleak thats for sure and one can only hope the automakers and goverment regulators will work to get electric and other stuff onto the market....NOW! not 3-5 years from now when fuel is $10/gallon.

Just think how high it will go this fall if we get a Katrina style storm or two even remotely threatening the gulf.

m

[acdcfan259]

Theres plenty of ways to help meet the demands that electric vehicles would put on our power grid. Wind farms, geothermal energy, solar energy, and nuclear.

[Protronie]

Originally Posted by acdcfan259

Theres plenty of ways to help meet the demands that electric vehicles would put on our power grid. Wind farms, geothermal energy, solar energy, and nuclear.

Wind farms are more hot air than electricity. They are not practical in most areas of the US. Neighbors often call them noisy and an eye sore.

Geothermal is another purely experimental source with limited locations.

Solar... is an excellent source of private energy generation ... when the sun shines. The cost of photocells has been dropping and their reliability has been increasing.

Nuclear... other counties (expect for the Ukraine) have an excellent safety record as well as a proved track record of providing a steady flow of power.
Its silly that the US has given into a bunch of wacky tree hugging environ nuts by banning a new construction.
With oil prices going through the roof perhaps its time to start building them again and maybe the enviros will be able to afford the gas in their SUV's.

Electric vehicles will not be the magic bullet needed to reverse global warming or make this nation energy independent.
However IMO they will be a part of the bigger picture. They will have a place, and they will be a part of the solution
Someday they may play a larger roll in our transport usage but that day is still far in the future and will cost billions in R&D money before they will replace the fossil fuel vehicles.

[Tom Saxton]

I just found this thread. I've been researching this subject for the past 18 months and have some information to add to the discussion.

Range

GM and Toyota both produced EVs with ranges above 100 miles to charge, so the 60 mile range is lower than what the big car companies were able to produce when forced to do so by the California Air Resources Board in the last 1990's. These vehicles were based on NiMH technology, lithium ion has been density. The Tesla Roadster has a range of 220 miles, so much more than 100 miles is possible.

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/

Cost

Of course EVs are more expensive than the mass-produced gas vehicles built by giant corporations that have been perfecting the technology and manufacturing process for 100 years. That cost gas vehicles is also artificially low because the buyers don't have to pay for the damage done to the atmosphere, it's great to not have to pay for dumping your trash!

The Tesla Roadster is expensive, but cost competitive when compared to similar high-end low-production sports cars. Lots of companies are working to get EVs into lower priced sedans. I'm sure that will happen, but not overnight.

Charge Time

People worry about how long it takes to charge an EV, but they totally ignore how inconvenient it is to make a trip to the gas station because we're all used to that annoyance. No one complains about how long it takes to charge a cell phone -- you just plug it in at night and it's full in the morning. As long as an EV has enough range for your daily commute, and charges overnight, it doesn't matter how long it takes. Imagine a world where waiting in line to breath in carcinogenic fumes and end up smelling like gas isn't normal. Imagine never having to go to a gas station again.

Given sufficient range and reasonable charge times, the charge time is only an issue for road trips. There are other solutions to the road trip problem - like owning a second car or renting a gas/electric hybrid for the few times you really need unlimited range.

Charge time is mainly limited by how much current you can pull through your outlet. For example, the Tesla Roadster's battery pack takes 4.5 hours to charge from fully drained with a 220V/90A circuit but it can be charged in less than an hour at a dedicated charging station. So, plug into the dedicated charger in the restaurant's parking lot and have a full battery after you finish a leisurely meal.

Well-to-Wheel Efficiency

The internal combustion engine (ICE) used to power vehicles is inherently inefficient with a narrow gap where they can generate significant torque and operate efficiently. That's why ICE vehicles have transmissions. Electric motors, especially AC induction motors, can be far more efficient and deliver torque over a much broader RPM range, and all without the complexity and maintenance issues of a transmission.

Both power plants and electric motors are more efficient than ICE technology, both in terms of miles per unit energy and miles per unit CO2 production.

http://www.teslamotors.com/efficiency/well_to_wheel.php

The Electric Grid

Our electric grid is designed to accommodate the highest peak load which typically occurs on hot summer days when air conditioning puts high demands on the grid. A recent study funded by the DOE found that the grid has enough unused capacity to charge 70 million EVs during off-peak hours. It we can figure out how to get the coffee maker to come on before we wake up in the morning, we can get our EVs to charge at night without having to manage it by running to the garage and plugging it at bed time.

http://www.pnl.gov/news/release.asp?id=204

EVs could actually help the grid by charging at night at low electric rates then selling their excess charge back to the grid during peak hours. Just tell your car it's OK to sell back to the grid as long as the battery is kept charged enough to satisfy your expected range needs.

EVs also have the advantage of being as green as the grid. It's easier to take care of CO2 production at a power plant than it is to change the technology of the thousands of vehicles that could be charged by that plant.

Recycling Batteries

I apologize for making yet another Tesla reference, but they are farther along in producing EVs than anyone else, or at least anyone else who's talking. Here's the story on recycling their batteries.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=66