Sponsor Criticized by Newspaper

[Lil' Lavery]

I'm glad to see some people are interjecting a little bit of reason into this thread. There wasn't a great deal of "criticism" in the article, although there did seem to be some negative connotations carried through-out (just my opinion). FIRST was not a specific target in any way shape or form, nor was the contribution to the regional or the state senator. In fact, there were quite a few other programs and initiatives listed there worthy of equal merit as FIRST (and even a biased group such as CD could agree). Time to take a step back and breathe, people.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by EricH

And it isn't "pork" because it benefits a lot of schools in a lot of districts. ("Pork" typically refers to very specific grants to a small group of people, especially in the wrong type of bill or in a very limited area.)

You'd be amazed at what most people consider "pork", as long as it's outside of their own congressional district.

There are millions of people who hate seeing the government spend billions on "pork projects"; however, if those projects are for things in their own community they welcome them with open arms.

As such, allocating $100,000 for a FIRST Regional can almost definitively be considered "pork". It's money that is going to a small audience (to the benefit of several thousand high school students) with a very specific scope (robotics competition). It's no different than the "pork" projects where a local municipality gets a $1,000,000 grant to build a paved bike trail or playground or to buy new school textbooks or whatever.

Now while I am most definitely for having the government help fund FIRST teams or events, I'm just cautioning everyone that just because something is "pork", doesn't automatically mean it's bad and should be vetoed and slashed from the budget. There are just as many legitimate pork projects as there are wasteful pork projects. The key thing is being responsible by knowing there is only so much money to go around, and that some legitimate pork projects may have to wait a while before they can get federal/state grants.

Which is why I have no problem with a newspaper (or any other individual or corporation) looking into the sources and organizations where politicians are pushing for pork projects. Having a higher government transparency will only help get more federal monies for good and well-meaning pork projects (of which I'm sure FIRST-related projects would generally end up here), while exposing all the sketchy pork projects to the newspapers, independent committee, and general public.

[GaryVoshol]

Hey, at least they aren't wasting money studying the mating habit of killer bees or something silly. Oh wait, maybe that wasn't a great example ...

[Nibbles]

When I read "Sponsor" I thought something terrible happened.
Since when was it government's job to fund these things? Our cooperate sponsors don't do a good enough job? I hate brining politics into this, but it isn't our job to beg for money out of peoples pockets, it is our job to make sure that there are no legal hurdles. If we need money, it is our job to figure out how to profit off of it like Americans, unlike other countries that do depend on government grants.

Everyone (responsible) talks about cutting government spending, at any level. What no one realizes is why it never gets done: When you end up looking at the list to choose cuts from, you realize there is no way to do it without being called names.

I think it would be helpful if everyone read up on the Wikipedia consensus on "Pork barrel."

[Adam Y.]

Originally Posted by Nibbles

I think it would be helpful if everyone read up on the Wikipedia consensus on "Pork barrel."

According to Wikipedia it's not pork. Hah.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Nibbles

When I read "Sponsor" I thought something terrible happened.
Since when was it government's job to fund these things? Our cooperate sponsors don't do a good enough job? I hate brining politics into this, but it isn't our job to beg for money out of peoples pockets, it is our job to make sure that there are no legal hurdles. If we need money, it is our job to figure out how to profit off of it like Americans, unlike other countries that do depend on government grants.

Everyone (responsible) talks about cutting government spending, at any level. What no one realizes is why it never gets done: When you end up looking at the list to choose cuts from, you realize there is no way to do it without being called names.

I think it would be helpful if everyone read up on the Wikipedia consensus on "Pork barrel."

Keep your divisive political opinions to chit-chat please.

[Nibbles]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Keep your divisive political opinions to chit-chat please.

It isn't just politics, it is good fund raising and marketing advice. The best way to spread the message of FIRST will be through the contributions of private donors.

From my last post, a case in a point: Our district treats us awful. Our school is great, but the district administration is one of those large bureaucratic ones that suffers from instruction creep, institutes policies at the rate of, well, it isn't bad, but it can be measured in words per week, all because they see numbers on an excel spreadsheet that don't match their expectations. Our school is actually somewhat sane, but that might have to do with the fact they are just sock puppets, our school makes none of their own policies, funding, pay, paperwork, computers, it is all handled by the district.
As it goes I invited all the key policy makers to the regional with a very nice letter explaining what FIRST is about, and a quick overview of the game.
Interestingly only one person replied, and it was after the competition, she was out of town. Our school principle did come, but that was school level, and wasn't my invitation. I plan on trying again this year, but months in advance, and by both email and a letter and maybe pair of safety glasses, and perhaps a singing telegram just to be safe.
Some of the specific rules are the very definition of a "team," purchase orders, accepting donations, complete lack of support from IT despite the fact the district mandates it, a supposed ban on private team/club websites which I interpret as not applying to us (it very clearly states it applies to administration and departments only), restrictions on meeting times and places, limitations on fundraising, being the most troubling.
My point is we (attempted to) spread the word of FIRST and get support when rules were written for sports teams and not the only FIRST intensive robotics team in the district, and some general bad treatment from a handful of staff members. We are making progress in baby steps, but it is happening, and probably in time for this coming season.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Nibbles

It isn't just politics, it is good fund raising and marketing advice. The best way to spread the message of FIRST will be through the contributions of private donors.

From my last post, a case in a point: Our district treats us awful. Our school is great, but the district administration is one of those large bureaucratic ones that suffers from instruction creep, institutes policies at the rate of, well, it isn't bad, but it can be measured in words per week, all because they see numbers on an excel spreadsheet that don't match their expectations. Our school is actually somewhat sane, but that might have to do with the fact they are just sock puppets, our school makes none of their own policies, funding, pay, paperwork, computers, it is all handled by the district.
As it goes I invited all the key policy makers to the regional with a very nice letter explaining what FIRST is about, and a quick overview of the game.
Interestingly only one person replied, and it was after the competition, she was out of town. Our school principle did come, but that was school level, and wasn't my invitation. I plan on trying again this year, but months in advance, and by both email and a letter and maybe pair of safety glasses, and perhaps a singing telegram just to be safe.
Some of the specific rules are the very definition of a "team," purchase orders, accepting donations, complete lack of support from IT despite the fact the district mandates it, a supposed ban on private team/club websites which I interpret as not applying to us (it very clearly states it applies to administration and departments only), restrictions on meeting times and places, limitations on fundraising, being the most troubling.
My point is we (attempted to) spread the word of FIRST and get support when rules were written for sports teams and not the only FIRST intensive robotics team in the district, and some general bad treatment from a handful of staff members. We are making progress in baby steps, but it is happening, and probably in time for this coming season.

I really fail to see how that applies. That's not even close to "pork barrel" spending. Regardless, it's a specific scenario, and not a generic rule that should be applied to all teams. Need I remind you that a government organization, NASA, is the largest sponsor of FIRST teams. Dean's homework last year? Informing politicians about and getting them to support FIRST.

[Carlee10]

Originally Posted by Nibbles

\I hate brining politics into this, but it isn't our job to beg for money out of peoples pockets, it is our job to make sure that there are no legal hurdles.

That's an interesting point. I think maybe we're making a mountian out of a molehill, though. Let's just appreciate what we get, and just keep on keeping on with getting more politicians familiar with FIRST.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Nibbles

Since when was it government's job to fund these things? Our cooperate sponsors don't do a good enough job? I hate brining politics into this, but it isn't our job to beg for money out of peoples pockets, it is our job to make sure that there are no legal hurdles. If we need money, it is our job to figure out how to profit off of it like Americans, unlike other countries that do depend on government grants.

Hmm, maybe you should look at the support Hawaii and Rhode Island give to FIRST programs. I thought that was what all of us wanted.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

Now while I am most definitely for having the government help fund FIRST teams or events, I'm just cautioning everyone that just because something is "pork", doesn't automatically mean it's bad and should be vetoed and slashed from the budget. There are just as many legitimate pork projects as there are wasteful pork projects. The key thing is being responsible by knowing there is only so much money to go around, and that some legitimate pork projects may have to wait a while before they can get federal/state grants.

$100,000 in state funding is a drop in the bucket compared to what was ultimately spent on this very notable project funded with federal money.

Sometimes good ideas that might benefit a particular community are just too costly and/or inefficiently implemented - I think that justifiably raises the ire of taxpayers, especially those who stand to never benefit from the end results. When you're talking about an "earmark" (the gentler way to describe pork), that's pretty much the vast majority of the taxpaying public.

Relatively smaller earmarks - $100,000 in state funding to support a FIRST regional or $180,000 to support FIRST robotics and STEM expansion within a particular region - aren't going to upset too many people as long as those who are responsible for managing the funds once received do so in a responsible and effective manner.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

$100,000 in state funding is a drop in the bucket compared to what was ultimately spent on this very notable project funded with federal money.

The Big Dig is again but a single one of hundreds of projects around the country funded by the government; unfortunately, the Big Dig just started hemorrhaging funds left and right, almost as quickly as the Boston Harbor tried in earnest to flood the tunnels. (But as someone who has been to and remembers Boston before the Big Dig, it is definitely a LOT better now).

But at the same time, had it not been for government funds, we wouldn't have had the first transcontinental railroad (and the economic boom that went with it), there would be no Interstate highways, and the Internet would have still been but a dream. All of those were funded by government projects, which could be considered "pork", and yet they all returned immense economic dividends many times more than the initial investment from the government.

I'm sure back before any one of those projects was proposed, I'm positive there were people who were like "Why should we spend millions to fund some research to get a computer to talk to another computer? There's only like five computers in the world, why is it worth it?" Now look where we are here today.

But at the same time, there are tons of other government projects which wasted money on useless things. But sometimes we don't know whether something will turn out to be the next best thing or a total dud until after we've studied it.

There is no magic answer; no definitive solution in absolutely no government funding or in total government funding. Rather, as in everything else in life, there's always that happy medium in the middle where everything usually settles out to that works the best.

[Adam Y.]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

The Big Dig is again but a single one of hundreds of projects around the country funded by the government; unfortunately, the Big Dig just started hemorrhaging funds left and right, almost as quickly as the Boston Harbor tried in earnest to flood the tunnels. (But as someone who has been to and remembers Boston before the Big Dig, it is definitely a LOT better now).

The Big Dig is a horrible example because you can actually prove that it was a mismanaged project that probably cost too much money which actually killed someone. Better? Yes. Wasted a lot of money? Yes.

[Nibbles]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Hmm, maybe you should look at the support Hawaii and Rhode Island give to FIRST programs. I thought that was what all of us wanted.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I really fail to see how that applies. That's not even close to "pork barrel" spending. Regardless, it's a specific scenario, and not a generic rule that should be applied to all teams. Need I remind you that a government organization, NASA, is the largest sponsor of FIRST teams. Dean's homework last year? Informing politicians about and getting them to support FIRST.

Spun the topic off: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?p=752622

Now we can discuss the origional topic at hand in this thread