Farewell, Chief Delphi.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by rocketperson44

I'm saying that we should look at ourselves, and why he left.

There is much wisdom in these last few posts.
Perhaps addressing how we work together and communicate with each other in Chief Delphi and how those interactions impact the community is stuff for another thread, esp. if the discussion is going to continue to reflect differing opinions.

This thread is basically a swan song...I would hate to see it crumple into frustrated emotional posts.

.02

[StephLee]

I've been following this thread, and I finally decided to throw a pair of pennies in...

I've seen the phrase "cry for attention" thrown about a good bit. Perhaps the community should consider whether it's a call for attention to, not Craig, but the actions of the community.

Telling people to deal with this issue or that person is all well and good, but the flip side of the same advice is to consider whether YOUR actions have at any point made you a person to be dealt with rather than enjoyed.

Every person should be able to deal with every other person...but no one should ever want to be the one who's dealt with. Expect of yourself that which is too high for you to expect of others, and you'll never be undeservedly disappointed.

[/$.02]

[FourPenguins]

Originally Posted by StephLee

I've seen the phrase "cry for attention" thrown about a good bit. Perhaps the community should consider whether it's a call for attention to, not Craig, but the actions of the community.

I think this is an excellent point. In order for CD to be a place where people feel welcome, I think we need to look closely at what we say and do here. I think that the younger posters sometimes forget their manners, and the older posters sometimes forget they're dealing with teenagers. CD needs to be a safe haven for ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and also mistakes. This is especially true when someone questions the establishment. If Craig, or anyone else, questions FIRST or the FIRST community in a mature, polite way, we should look at what he or she is saying, rather than shun the heretic. I think many CDers are quick to ostracize anyone who doesn't adhere to the FIRST party line. FIRST is not perfect. FIRST teams are not perfect. Even Woody, Dean, and Dave are not perfect. The only way we're going to approach perfection is if we listen to the people with ideas instead of calling them ungrateful or un-GP.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by StephLee

I've seen the phrase "cry for attention" thrown about a good bit. Perhaps the community should consider whether it's a call for attention to, not Craig, but the actions of the community.

Then he should have posted in one of the several existing threads about that issue, such as this one. He even posted in that thread. He may have attempted to make it seem like that's what this thread is about, but in reality he's attempting to martyr himself to this cause.
If he decided that he no longer feels his time is best invested on these forums, so be it.

[Pavan Dave]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Then he should have posted in one of the several existing threads about that issue, such as this one. He even posted in that thread. He may have attempted to make it seem like that's what this thread is about, but in reality he's attempting to martyr himself to this cause.
If he decided that he no longer feels his time is best invested on these forums, so be it.

Many of those threads are JUST pretty faces. People see them, read them, agree with them, and keep on doing what they do. It may not be what is supposed to happen but you know as well as I do that is the case. Just because we read something and think its a good idea doesn't necessarily mean we follow it.

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally Posted by rocketperson44

Because he is a valued member of the community. Also, if someone leaves because of our actions, even if we think they are wrong to do so, should we really just go "eh, who cares?"

Many valued members of the "ChiefDelphi" community have left over the years, whether disappearing completely or just posting rarely (if ever). There has been little to no outcry for their return. Possibly because there has always been someone to step up and take that place in the community, qualified or not, correct or not, knowledgeable or not.

This voluntary community is just a small percentage of the FIRST community's overall sphere of influence. In fact, CD is rarely, if ever, a catalyst for change. The opinions set forth here are often underthought, overwritten, and/or spewing sticky-sweet affirmations toward others. It took me a while to learn that lesson, and I've learned it well. If you are convinced that ChiefDelphi is a happy community of gracious individuals who are ultimately humble and dedicated to this program, you will find yourself very outdated.

I'm sure that a reporter doing research on the program, reading CD, would be horrified to learn just how much we crucify our own members, while both simultaneously praising and damning the charity that works seemingly for our benefit. Somehow, this community has grown to believe that the FIRST organization should be listening to us, because WE are the customers, WE give them our money, and WE are the ones they are trying to benefit.

There is little to no consideration for the fact that perhaps, just maybe, there are people who disregard CD entirely because of the disgusting behavior displayed (or see it for what it is) and perhaps, they are the ones making the change for reasons we cannot see or refuse to understand. By circumventing the cesspool of opinions they are getting a direct line to help create policies with which the public is not always happy. However, because the largest online community's opinions are muddled and cannot always be trusted, these grave mistakes go untouched and often are not changed until the right people can get through to the top.

From vilifying members, having the audacity to demand that which you have no right, and martyring those that declare they are fed up, this forum has degraded into an online record-book of ignorant, passionate, spur-of-the-moment posts. Few if any bother to think of the repercussions on their personal being, their team entity, or even on FIRST as a whole prior to hitting the "Submit Reply" button. I have spoken with others who regard CD as the pit in which good opinions and ideas go to die. Do these people bother to let the CD community know? Of course not. That which you disregard no longer matters.

People like the one that started this thread are making a cry. Whether or not that is for change or for their personal benefit is for you to decide. However, if disregarding that which no longer matters is the solution, and if denouncing a community and vowing not to return is the answer, why turn your profile private so that others can no longer see when you are signing on to read if your catalyst and personal martyrdom worked?

I have to admit that I copied off another that posted in this thread after reading what many wanted to say but few wanted to bother. After all, posts like this and all that came before it are sparking discussion - precisely what Mr. Hickman wanted. I guess he wins through us losing.

Before you continue posting, consider this: what benefit is your post having? I think if more of you considered that thoroughly instead of opening mouths without clearly thinking through repercussions, purpose, backlash, etc., you'd realize that this microcosm of the FIRST community does not depend on every member and what they, personally, believe is right for FIRST. The entitlement many of you will feel after reading this non-existent. People will continue fighting, taking relevant threads to the doghouse, beating dead horses, and posting irrelevant drivel whether or not they are policed. ChiefDelphi will continue whether you are here or not. The sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be.

There are a great many people who have offered great advice to folks in the past. It's true - amongst all of the stupid, unwanted, irrelevant things posted on CD, every once in a while a tidbit of useful information or actual relevant advice slips through. But the ratio of that which does not matter to that which matters is steadily becoming more and more out of balance.

There is a reason, a purpose, a true and bona fide function why CD exists. It is not always for me or for you. I believe it was Francisco D'Anconia who said, "You cannot have your cake and let your neighbor eat it too." In this case, you cannot have your right to trash and maim others with your strong opinions and let others do the same, under the banner of a 'graciously professional' community.

But good luck trying.

[JaneYoung]

I think the OP is a teenager.

One thing that CD gets right is having the mix of ages involved in the fora spanning age differences, backgrounds, generations, and experience. I would venture a guess and say it can be hard for teenagers to express thoughts and opinions in CD. It probably gets easier but I don't know, I'm not a teenager.

In every team, there are students who stick. They enter the team and stay. There are students who enter the team, stay for a while and leave. Some don't even stay a while, they just move on. Sometimes, there are students who enter the team and the hope is that they'll stick around and realize some of their potential as a team member.

I think the same can be true in CD. Students, alumni, mentors, etc., exchanging ideas and information. There is nothing wrong with that. Even when it gets a little tough. It is sad when a student leaves a team and it can be sad when they leave CD. I've heard that many valuable contributors have left CD or don't post and that is a loss for everyone who could glean knowledge and wisdom from them. It is their choice, that is true, but it can still be seen as lost opportunity by some.

[billbo911]

We all also need to remember, we have only heard one side of this story. So, until we hear both sides, it would be wise for all of us to refrain from any sort of judgment on this situation. Maybe it is time to let this thread rest.

Don't get me wrong, the discussion has much merit, but as mentioned by others, it needs to be discussed in the threads that already exist on the subject.

[Molten]

Well, I must say that I am some what appalled by some of the remarks here. He says that he has had enough of people complaining to him and that he is going to leave. So, what do we do? We complain to him. A friend of yours is going to leave and decides to tell everyone. Do you tell him to stay? Do you question his reasons for leaving? It seems to me, that alot of people are doing either or both of these. To me, this seems rude. This may be none of my business, but as I promised earlier in this thread. I don't care. As long as you attack one man's ideals you are attacking the community itself. Just lay off of him and let him be.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Pavan Dave

Many of those threads are JUST pretty faces. People see them, read them, agree with them, and keep on doing what they do. It may not be what is supposed to happen but you know as well as I do that is the case. Just because we read something and think its a good idea doesn't necessarily mean we follow it.

This thread is no different, other than the original poster intentionally martyred himself instead of later getting crucified for acting on the ideals.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

This thread is no different, other than the original poster intentionally martyred himself instead of later getting crucified for acting on the ideals.

I may have missed something. At what point did he become the martyr? He is still alive and well. He just chose to leave. A martyr kills himself to inspire his cause. He just left a message after decided to leave. He had no intention of raising tension. He did not kill himself. He just chose to say good bye. If I missed something, please give me a quote of where he made himself a martyr. Otherwise, please stop making false allegations.

[smurfgirl]

I think that this thread is starting to evolve into discussion which rivals the issue Craig brought up in his original post. It's apparent that some reflection of the issues at hand is necessary, but perhaps we all need to take a break and allow for some self-reflection before we continue to turn this thread into an ironic expression of the very qualms that caused Craig to leave.

[Joe G.]

I'm starting to think that this thread should be closed. We have already said nearly everything that can short of the personal attacks that this thread was started up against. In short of that, everyone, please read the origional post a few times before posting in this thread. As Pavan said, we are just reading these ideas, and then ignoring them. Craig left for a reason, and we should at least notice what that reason was, and not just keep on doing exactly what caused him to leave.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Molten

I may have missed something. At what point did he become the martyr? He is still alive and well. He just chose to leave. A martyr kills himself to inspire his cause. He just left a message after decided to leave. He had no intention of raising tension. He did not kill himself. He just chose to say good bye. If I missed something, please give me a quote of where he made himself a martyr. Otherwise, please stop making false allegations.

Yup, you did miss something. The word martyr has more meanings than killing oneself to further a cause.

Originally Posted by American Heritage Dictionary

mar·tyr n.
3b. One who makes a great show of suffering in order to arouse sympathy.

I believe this is the definition that Sean was getting at.

[tim_reiher]

Originally Posted by rocketperson44

I'm starting to think that this thread should be closed. We have already said nearly everything that can short of the personal attacks that this thread was started up against.

I agree with Joe here. This thread is starting to get a little hostile, and I really hope it doesn't turn into a flame war. These forums certainly don't need anymore of that. This thread should stay civil, and if no one has anything else new to say, or the thread does degrade into a flame war, it probably does deserve to be closed.

EDIT: I fully believe that people should express their views. I also believe, and see proof of every day on CD, that views can, and should be expressed without hostility. Hostility leads to flaming. Flaming puts a sad scar on this community. Also, there is no point in beating a dead horse by saying something that has been said many times already by other posters.