Are 1114, 217, and 148 beatable?

[fredliu168]

If anyone remembers this match:

http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...?matchid=10447

I think the key is to have two robots with decent hybrid grab and hold the balls from 1114, 217 and 148's alliance. I believe this will result in 20 points of penalty. Then have a great scoring team try to make up that 20 point deficeit using the 2 balls availible.

Not a nice way to win, but I think it can be done this way.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

If anyone remembers this match:

http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...?matchid=10447

I think the key is to have two robots with decent hybrid grab and hold the balls from 1114, 217 and 148's alliance. I believe this will result in 20 points of penalty. Then have a great scoring team try to make up that 20 point deficeit using the 2 balls availible.

Not a nice way to win, but I think it can be done this way.

But you'd get a yellow and possibly red card.

If you're down 1-0, sure, go for it. You've got nothing to lose.

[Herodotus]

No alliance is unbeatable, and I think any alliance that has at least two decent hurdlers could stand against a 217, 1114, and 148 alliance by using intelligent strategy and good driving. No one is unbeatable, not ever. However, if you go in believing that you can't win, then you are right. If you go in believing that anything is possible and you can still win, then you are right.

[dtengineering]

While I think it is pretty clear that 1114 was THE dominant robot this season, I was surprised by both their alliance picks. Until I realized that they were choosing based perhaps more on people than on machines. Evidently an effective strategy, but perhaps not the optimal alliance. If one were to remove the constraints of the draft order, I think it may have been possible to form a higher scoring alliance based on the teams within that division.

I would also suggest that the one robot design that could have significantly reduced 1114's effectiveness was not built... or at least not used in this way as far as I know.

There is no rule preventing a team from raising a 5' wide bar to a height of 9' or so, and parking just behind their opponent's finish line. The bar would be arranged so that the ball would bounce off it before it fully crossed the overpass. Since the ball had been shot, and was no longer in contact will the launcher, this would not count as "contact during hurdling", and yet the ball would never fully cross the finish line to count as a hurdle. This would have seriously messed up all the launch bots... even if it only blocked 50% of shots, the psychological effect would have the launchers lining up to aim and drastically reducing their rate of scoring.

Jason

[Jon Jack]

Yes, they are beatable. 968, 233 and 60 proved that by beating them in raw score in two of their three matches. All it would have taken was a missed or bad call (which seem to be common the last couple of years) to have altered the outcome of any of those semi-final matches.

Joe Ross said something to me after 330 won the LA Regional this past year... "There's a lot of luck involved in any victory." He's 100% right. When you were picked, who is available when you're picking, the way certain calls go your way... These are some of the factors that YOU have no control over that can play a major part in a victory (in a match, a regional or a championship).

Not to take anything away from 1114, 217 and 148... They had an amazing alliance. It says a lot when you can go into a divisional semi-final match, down a robot (and choosing not to take the alternate) and still get a victory.

[Ericgehrken]

If it wasn't for 40's Red Card, their alliance would have still won 50-48. That's even with 90 points in penalties for the 333,40,195 alliance and 30 for 1114,217 alliance.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Jon Jack

Joe Ross said something to me after 330 won the LA Regional this past year... "There's a lot of luck involved in any victory." He's 100% right. When you were picked, who is available when you're picking, the way certain calls go your way... These are some of the factors that YOU have no control over that can play a major part in a victory (in a match, a regional or a championship).

Not to take anything away from 1114, 217 and 148... They had an amazing alliance. It says a lot when you can go into a divisional semi-final match, down a robot (and choosing not to take the alternate) and still get a victory.

Yeah, 1114 has had an amazing robot for years running, and last year had a very, very capable alliance on curie. But they didn't make it. I'd like to think part of the that difference was luck.

[Heretic121]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

If anyone remembers this match:

http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...?matchid=10447

I think the key is to have two robots with decent hybrid grab and hold the balls from 1114, 217 and 148's alliance. I believe this will result in 20 points of penalty. Then have a great scoring team try to make up that 20 point deficeit using the 2 balls availible.

Not a nice way to win, but I think it can be done this way.

in this match yes we were talked to and said had we won we would have been issused a yellow card.

also to reference this match and 2nd what rick said, we held them to 28 points in auto which if i belive was the LOWEST all of elims for the 1114 allaince. But also that block was ruled a "intentional block" ala 10pt penalty and a yellow card for intentional impeading and we were warned which was the reason we did not do it in the 2nd match. Looking back we should have since it was still possibly our last match of the year.

http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...?matchid=10443

As for the 0 ball strategy, if we had a 2nd bot with grabber capabilites like 176 had almost any team can shut any alliance down. Yes you get a yellow card yes it is not "in the spirit of first" but when you are facing the last match of your season you try what you have to to win the match.

*back on topic* yes i belive out of any allaince at nats the 968, 233 alliance had the best chance and could take a 2/3 against 1114, 217, 148

[Lil' Lavery]

If 148 plays like they did in St. Louis and New Orleans, it would be very very very tough (especially if they have the St. Louis hybrid). If they play like they did at Championship, the alliance is very beatable (as shown by the multiple times they flirted with disaster). Either way, there are a number of alliance structures that would be able to pressure the alliance, and a few alliances that can even run-and-gun with them.
I won't go into too much detail, but the keys are fast and effective hurdling, ball control, and keeping it close in hybrid.
The Poof/RAWC twins are perhaps the most dangerous teams to the 1114/217/148 alliance, as they can hang with 1114's scoring, and are quick and agile enough to make it very hard for 148's defensive style to work against them. There are others who could be very trouble-some in this role, such as 27(fully working), 39, 103, or 330. 148 will have a much easier time hindering those three though. 968 and 103 are the only ones who can even come close of these four to matching 1114's hybrid scoring, which means the partners will have to pick up some slack. If a team like 1124 or 365 takes the 2nd slot, with their ability to get and score the trackball while defended and huge hybrid points can compliment the first member extraordinarily well.
The third member will make or break the alliance. 1114 and 217 can both acquire the ball in stick situations, and 1114 made a living of sneaking balls out of corners and seemingly impossible situations. A simple "corner-lock" is very hard to pull off successfully against them without allocating too much scoring. The third partner needs to be able to put up hybrid points, lap quickly, and hamper the opponent's scoring.
201 is the ultimate X-Factor, as when they were on their game, they were a defender without peers. Their ball-driving defense cut down 217's scoring at GLR elims, and held 27 to a single hurdle in an elimination match on Galileo. Other matches they were absolutely abused though. They can even chip in a hurdle if needed.
Other than 201, a few other legitimate possibilities exist. 8 was looked at as the "designated simbot stopper" on Galileo, although 1114 went 3-0 against them. In the right alliance and in a great match they could apply enough pressure. A strong combo-threat like 494/70, 68, or 1771 could also make a difference as the third partner.
There's a lot more to the match-up and game strategy I could go into, but I won't tip my hand too much...
The alliance with the best shot, imho, would be 968/1124/201.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

The alliance with the best shot, imho, would be 968/1124/201.

In those tight corners and how 1114 plays, I personally think parts of 1124's grabber could potentially break. It would be risky to play. I think the Poof/RAWC/201 would work.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by lilstogi11

In those tight corners and how 1114 plays, I personally think parts of 1124's grabber could potentially break. It would be risky to play. I think the Poof/RAWC/201 would work.

Our gripper is actually a lot more at risk when it's out in the open field without a ball- that's when people latch onto it and rip it apart, and we have to stand there and watch. We can still play with one of our four "fingers" broken though, sometimes even two. Not sure how well it would compare on the Einstein field, though.

I'm gonna have to agree with you that 1124 does not belong in the winning alliance, but for other reasons. As much as I love my team and our robot, I don't think that we can achieve the same efficiency with our arm as a lot of the launcher robots do. The best of the best launcher robots always seem to outscore us, even if only by a little, but a few points here and there add up.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by smurfgirl

Our gripper is actually a lot more at risk when it's out in the open field without a ball- that's when people latch onto it and rip it apart, and we have to stand there and watch. We can still play with one of our four "fingers" broken though, sometimes even two. Not sure how well it would compare on the Einstein field, though.

I'm gonna have to agree with you that 1124 does not belong in the winning alliance, but for other reasons. As much as I love my team and our robot, I don't think that we can achieve the same efficiency with our arm as a lot of the launcher robots do. The best of the best launcher robots always seem to outscore us, even if only by a little, but a few points here and there add up.

Your hybrid does make up for it though..

[Uberbots]

Originally Posted by lilstogi11

Your hybrid does make up for it though..

when it works (=

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by Uberbots

when it works (=

You should just take the complement...



Even when our hybrid works, though, I don't think it's enough to counteract 1114's hybrid. And theirs is definitely a bit more consistent than ours. So I still wouldn't put us on the alliance to beat them. We didn't make it too far on Einstein this year.