Are 1114, 217, and 148 beatable?

[commodoredl]

Yes, they are definitely beatable, as it did happen on Einstein. Beating them twice, though, is very challenging. And if you were to custom-tailor an alliance just to beat those three, it probably wouldn't be able to stand up to other teams or perform as well in other matches.
The alliance I can see beating the SimChickenWranglers consists of 20, 330, and 2106.
The strategy is a total trackball defense one. I would have 20 grab an opponent ball right at the start of tele, incurring a 10 point penalty. 2106 would use its chain driven manipulator to surround an opponent ball and grip it just enough that it is still herded, not possessed, and therefore not incurring any penalties. Then they must stay in the corner holding the ball the whole match.
Meanwhile, 20 would be lapping like crazy with their bot while playing keep-away with the trackball, to try and overcome the penalty points. I can see them getting 7-9 laps in tele, so that's 14-18 points.
Lastly, 330 would need to use its ability to herd while possessing to control both of its trackballs, and double hurdle every chance it can get. I don't see the other alliance trying to play the same trackball possession game, but if they do only the ThunderChickens can really hold onto the ball without possessing it. 148 and 217's defense could be problematic.
So, after all is said and done, I think that a real aggressive defense would probably be the best way to win. If they can keep up in Hybrid (20 can get 5 lines, 330 3, 2106 2 maybe, and the alliance might get a ball down), and be within ten points, then it's definitely a viable strategy.

In any other match, this alliance would be very strong with the dual-hurdling of 20 and 330 combined with my proposed trackball defense for 2106.

[JackN]

I will echo what Sean said, when these three are at their top level they are very hard to beat. If 217/148 had their hybrids at the level they were at earlier in the season i think it becomes an even bigger challenge. But if I were to pick three teams that would be able to do it, it would go like this 968/67/195. These three have the hybrid mode abilities to easily be tied with if not in the lead of the Simchicken Wranglers. Also 195 has the speed to race 1114/217 to any ball and prevent them from getting it (As seen in the Galileo Semis). RAWC and HOT have the scoring ability to keep up and the pick-up abilities to be able to deal with 148's defense. If the Robowranglers can pin a ball HOT can either get the ball out/switch to defense to defend 217. Obviously this discussion is moot if any of the teams on either alliance breaks down.

[thefro526]

In all seriousness, 1114, 217, 148 came close to losing a lot more than what most people seem to understand. If you notice they were outscored at least twice if not more times on their way onto Einstein but anytime they were out scored the opposing alliance received at enough penalties to negate the points lead. After seeing 254, 1717 and (???) almost beat them in Galileo I know they can be beat. 1114's biggest advantage is their autonomous consistency and the fact that it's illegal to try to block them. If this were like games of past years then it would be an entirely different issue in autonomous. At that point there are many strong hurdlers that could run with them. 254,968,16,67,233,2056, and 330 are the first to come to mind. I think in a straight up scoring match 330 and 254/968 and a quick lap runner could definitely give the current world champs a run for their money.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by thefro526

After seeing 254, 1717 and (???) almost beat them in Galileo I know they can be beat.

That would be 384, Sparky. I'm curious what you meant by the 1717, 254, 384 almost beating them. 1114/217/148 won in two matches, 114-58 and 150-58. It was a pretty handy beat down (no offense to the losing teams). 384 couldn't replicate the defense that gave 1114 and 217 trouble earlier, 217 was as mechanically sound as it was the entire eliminations, and the Poofs and Penguins couldn't find their rhythm. That was as convincing as I saw the Galileo #1 alliance the entire event.

[Tim Delles]

Honestly,

With John, Paul, and Karthik (the Big 3 that come to mind... i know there are plenty of amazing scouts behind each one) on the same team, they could make cardboard boxes win matches... its just what they do...

However are they beatable... obviously with what we saw during the season is that they were not beatable (best of 3). However if you were to say is there ANY alliance out there that could beat them? The answer is yes. Here are just a few alliances i think could have beat them:

968, 67, 60
968 - 254 - 330
1124 - 1024 - 968

These are just a few... I have 968 on each of these, because i believe they have the BEST robot, but not the best drive team/strategy as proven by the Simbo-Chicken-Wranglers.

Anyways... can they be beat by Any alliance? Yes. Could they have been beaten by any alliance they faced? Yes. Were they beaten? No.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Tim Delles

With John, Paul, and Karthik (the Big 3 that come to mind... i know there are plenty of amazing scouts behind each one) on the same team, they could make cardboard boxes win matches... its just what they do...

I think Mr. Derek Bessette plays a part in this as well, if I'm not mistaken.

[Arefin Bari]

Their machine has only so much to do with winning the gold. The main factors were the relationship these 3 teams have with each other and how experienced their drive team was. Yes, they are beatable. But I doubt that there are many alliances that will be able to take them out of the competition.

As far luck goes, I don't think there was much luck involved when 1114 ended up seeding #1. As many have pointed out before in quiet a few threads that 1114 built a machine that can probably take on a lot of alliance just on their own. They were putting up enough points each match that I can't think of a team to compare them to. I believe this was the first year in a long time I felt that team 1114, 217 and 148 earned the gold without any luck. If there is anything "lucky" about this alliance, it would be the fact that 148 was still available for the pick.

It's not the machine that mattered the most, what was the strategy they came up with to earn the gold.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

That would be 384, Sparky. I'm curious what you meant by the 1717, 254, 384 almost beating them. 1114/217/148 won in two matches, 114-58 and 150-58. It was a pretty handy beat down (no offense to the losing teams). 384 couldn't replicate the defense that gave 1114 and 217 trouble earlier, 217 was as mechanically sound as it was the entire eliminations, and the Poofs and Penguins couldn't find their rhythm. That was as convincing as I saw the Galileo #1 alliance the entire event.

For some reason I remember scoring prior to penalties to be much close than that. I'd have to look it up but it's far to late right now....way too tired...

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by commodoredl

The strategy is a total trackball defense one. I would have 20 grab an opponent ball right at the start of tele, incurring a 10 point penalty.

And possibly earning themselves a yellow card.

2106 would use its chain driven manipulator to surround an opponent ball and grip it just enough that it is still herded, not possessed, and therefore not incurring any penalties. Then they must stay in the corner holding the ball the whole match.

You might rethink that:

Originally Posted by Rules

POSSESSION: Controlling the position and movement of a TRACKBALL while the TRACKBALL is
supported or captured by an ALLIANCE shall be considered POSSESSION of the TRACKBALL. A
TRACKBALL shall be considered “supported” by a ROBOT if in the estimation of a reasonably
astute observer the majority of the weight of the TRACKBALL is being borne by the ROBOT. A
TRACKBALL shall be considered “captured” by a ROBOT if, as the ROBOT moves or changes
orientation (e.g. backs up or spins in place), the TRACKBALL remains in approximately the same
position relative to the ROBOT. Both the “supported” and “captured” conditions include the case
where the TRACKBALL is also in contact with the floor.

Meanwhile, 20 would be lapping like crazy with their bot while playing keep-away with the trackball, to try and overcome the penalty points. I can see them getting 7-9 laps in tele, so that's 14-18 points.

Racking up 2 points for the opponents each time they cross their ball.

Lastly, 330 would need to use its ability to herd while possessing to control both of its trackballs ...

Also illegal - see <G27>.

[commodoredl]

You are correct, sir, I am a bit rusty on the rules, so thanks for pointing out where there were holes. You are right on pretty much every point, so I think my strategy definitely needed some rethinking.

I guess that team 20's strategy would need to change as well. Perhaps having them hurdle alongside 330, racking up the score. Or swap 20 with 968, as their hybrids are close in score, and 968 can hurdle more in tele.

I'm not sure, however, if 2106 would be considered in possession of the ball. The ball would not be "supported," because it would be resting on the ground, and not being held. I suppose it might be grounds for capturing, but if 2106 loosened their manipulator by about a foot there would be some room for it to move, at the expense of your total defense.
Thanks again for helping me remember to check the manual before strategizing!

[Cory]

Originally Posted by commodoredl

I suppose it might be grounds for capturing, but if 2106 loosened their manipulator by about a foot there would be some room for it to move, at the expense of your total defense.
Thanks again for helping me remember to check the manual before strategizing!

I don't recall the exact wording of the rule, but it says something to the effect of that if you're pushing the ball around, stop, change directions, and the ball comes with you, you're in possession of it, which would be what would happen in this scenario.

[Ericgehrken]

330 on Galileo used their gripper arms to pin a trackball into the all and no penalties were called. 2106 used a similar method, so as long as they dont pick up the ball, it would not incur penalties.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by firstbots195

330 on Galileo used their gripper arms to pin a trackball into the all and no penalties were called. 2106 used a similar method, so as long as they dont pick up the ball, it would not incur penalties.

Yeah, but 330 doesn't encircle the ball. They just go halfway around.

[thefro526]

The ball pinning strategy that you guys are discussing cost us in the Philly semi finals and on Archi. Every time I challenged the rulings I was always told that it's not illegal if the ball does not move as the robot does. Basically if the robot moves and the ball then goes into unrestrained motion it's legal. Now if the robot moves and the ball moves in restrained motion with the robot it's considered illegal

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by firstbots195

330 on Galileo used their gripper arms to pin a trackball into the all and no penalties were called. 2106 used a similar method, so as long as they dont pick up the ball, it would not incur penalties.

It also wasn't effective against 1114, because they were able to roll it out. They are THAT good. I think 2106 would have the same problem.

See about 40 seconds into this video: http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...?matchid=10451