Are 1114, 217, and 148 beatable?

[Arefin Bari]

Their machine has only so much to do with winning the gold. The main factors were the relationship these 3 teams have with each other and how experienced their drive team was. Yes, they are beatable. But I doubt that there are many alliances that will be able to take them out of the competition.

As far luck goes, I don't think there was much luck involved when 1114 ended up seeding #1. As many have pointed out before in quiet a few threads that 1114 built a machine that can probably take on a lot of alliance just on their own. They were putting up enough points each match that I can't think of a team to compare them to. I believe this was the first year in a long time I felt that team 1114, 217 and 148 earned the gold without any luck. If there is anything "lucky" about this alliance, it would be the fact that 148 was still available for the pick.

It's not the machine that mattered the most, what was the strategy they came up with to earn the gold.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

That would be 384, Sparky. I'm curious what you meant by the 1717, 254, 384 almost beating them. 1114/217/148 won in two matches, 114-58 and 150-58. It was a pretty handy beat down (no offense to the losing teams). 384 couldn't replicate the defense that gave 1114 and 217 trouble earlier, 217 was as mechanically sound as it was the entire eliminations, and the Poofs and Penguins couldn't find their rhythm. That was as convincing as I saw the Galileo #1 alliance the entire event.

For some reason I remember scoring prior to penalties to be much close than that. I'd have to look it up but it's far to late right now....way too tired...

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by 115inventorsam

I definitely would have 968, they can hurdle pretty much just as well as 1114, but their hybrid is a bit lacking.

968 can get 5 lines in hybrid mode, if they were allied with a partner that took down balls then their hybrid mode is just about the best you can ask for. Very very few times did I see a team get more lines than five.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Tim Delles

With John, Paul, and Karthik (the Big 3 that come to mind... i know there are plenty of amazing scouts behind each one) on the same team, they could make cardboard boxes win matches... its just what they do...

I think Mr. Derek Bessette plays a part in this as well, if I'm not mistaken.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by commodoredl

The strategy is a total trackball defense one. I would have 20 grab an opponent ball right at the start of tele, incurring a 10 point penalty.

And possibly earning themselves a yellow card.

2106 would use its chain driven manipulator to surround an opponent ball and grip it just enough that it is still herded, not possessed, and therefore not incurring any penalties. Then they must stay in the corner holding the ball the whole match.

You might rethink that:

Originally Posted by Rules

POSSESSION: Controlling the position and movement of a TRACKBALL while the TRACKBALL is
supported or captured by an ALLIANCE shall be considered POSSESSION of the TRACKBALL. A
TRACKBALL shall be considered “supported” by a ROBOT if in the estimation of a reasonably
astute observer the majority of the weight of the TRACKBALL is being borne by the ROBOT. A
TRACKBALL shall be considered “captured” by a ROBOT if, as the ROBOT moves or changes
orientation (e.g. backs up or spins in place), the TRACKBALL remains in approximately the same
position relative to the ROBOT. Both the “supported” and “captured” conditions include the case
where the TRACKBALL is also in contact with the floor.

Meanwhile, 20 would be lapping like crazy with their bot while playing keep-away with the trackball, to try and overcome the penalty points. I can see them getting 7-9 laps in tele, so that's 14-18 points.

Racking up 2 points for the opponents each time they cross their ball.

Lastly, 330 would need to use its ability to herd while possessing to control both of its trackballs ...

Also illegal - see <G27>.

[commodoredl]

You are correct, sir, I am a bit rusty on the rules, so thanks for pointing out where there were holes. You are right on pretty much every point, so I think my strategy definitely needed some rethinking.

I guess that team 20's strategy would need to change as well. Perhaps having them hurdle alongside 330, racking up the score. Or swap 20 with 968, as their hybrids are close in score, and 968 can hurdle more in tele.

I'm not sure, however, if 2106 would be considered in possession of the ball. The ball would not be "supported," because it would be resting on the ground, and not being held. I suppose it might be grounds for capturing, but if 2106 loosened their manipulator by about a foot there would be some room for it to move, at the expense of your total defense.
Thanks again for helping me remember to check the manual before strategizing!

[115inventorsam]

Originally Posted by Sgreco27

968 can get 5 lines in hybrid mode, if they were allied with a partner that took down balls then their hybrid mode is just about the best you can ask for. Very very few times did I see a team get more lines than five.

Which is exactly why I have 25 as the third bot, they can knock both balls off, at least in the match we were paired with them. And I know 968 can get lots of lines, I just meant that they just couldn't knock off both balls.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by commodoredl

I suppose it might be grounds for capturing, but if 2106 loosened their manipulator by about a foot there would be some room for it to move, at the expense of your total defense.
Thanks again for helping me remember to check the manual before strategizing!

I don't recall the exact wording of the rule, but it says something to the effect of that if you're pushing the ball around, stop, change directions, and the ball comes with you, you're in possession of it, which would be what would happen in this scenario.

[Ericgehrken]

330 on Galileo used their gripper arms to pin a trackball into the all and no penalties were called. 2106 used a similar method, so as long as they dont pick up the ball, it would not incur penalties.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by firstbots195

330 on Galileo used their gripper arms to pin a trackball into the all and no penalties were called. 2106 used a similar method, so as long as they dont pick up the ball, it would not incur penalties.

Yeah, but 330 doesn't encircle the ball. They just go halfway around.

[thefro526]

The ball pinning strategy that you guys are discussing cost us in the Philly semi finals and on Archi. Every time I challenged the rulings I was always told that it's not illegal if the ball does not move as the robot does. Basically if the robot moves and the ball then goes into unrestrained motion it's legal. Now if the robot moves and the ball moves in restrained motion with the robot it's considered illegal

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by firstbots195

330 on Galileo used their gripper arms to pin a trackball into the all and no penalties were called. 2106 used a similar method, so as long as they dont pick up the ball, it would not incur penalties.

It also wasn't effective against 1114, because they were able to roll it out. They are THAT good. I think 2106 would have the same problem.

See about 40 seconds into this video: http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...?matchid=10451

[tennispro9911]

1114 is the best scorer. They aren't untouchable, and in any given match, can get outscored by certain robots given the circumstances, but they are, in my opinion, the single best bot this year in the competition. Going into the championships, I thought it would be their title to lose, and I know anything can happen, but they didn't lose it. I don't mean to belittle 217 or 148. They are great robots, but 1114 won every single competition they entered. 217, 148, and others were great robots but not as dominant.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by tennispro9911

217, 148, and others were great robots but not as dominant.

This nudged a thought that has been brewing over the past couple of days. It could probably brew for a couple more but I'll give it a shot.

When the posts began in the CD fora after the 2008 Championship and when photos began to appear, we were lucky to have some of our World Champions contributing their thoughts, reactions, and feelings in the threads. The teams, the coaches, and the drive teams were all so happy. What seemed to come from all the happiness and celebration and found its way into words was the respect that all of them had for each other and how they made up for weaknesses that occurred/popped up in the matches, depending on the alliance to overcome those weaknesses and challenges by working together and communicating with each other - all the while competing for the victories on Galileo and then on Einstein. The respect, in my mind, has been developed over time and is a great nod towards the importance of having engineers involved in the FRC program as mentors and as coaches, working side by side with students. The winning alliance showcased this importance and it also reflected a respect and appreciation that teams can have for themselves and for each other. Whether one robot was more dominant or not in the end or whether this worthy alliance that competed on Einstein and brought home the gold - can be beaten, is not important to me. They have already proven that they can win and they can win even when things get a little tough or challenging. That is when the alliance works together showing the strength of character and the level of respect - when it gets a little tough. And, that is what the robotics competition part of FIRST is about. I said all that and did not use the term, Gracious Professionalism, but it was present there between the lines and within those teams. Still is.

[tennispro9911]

Very good point.

My team was not good enough to even make the eliminations at Championships, ... this year. We made championships our first two years, and are extremely proud coming from a smaller school and with only 13 members. We learned a great deal about engineering, teamwork, and many other things including the possibly overused, but underappreciated term, gracious professionalism. 1114, 148, and 217 came together to build robots that were amazing, but they also worked together and became more than just the sum of their parts. They decided on a strategy that was effective and worked extremely well, and executed it brilliantly.